Ep. #1016 - Career Burnout

00:00.00
Matt DeCoursey
And we’re back for another episode of Startup Hustle. Matt DeCoursey here to have another conversation I’m hoping helps your business grow. Are you burned out with your career? Are you tired of what you’re doing or maybe just having a bad day? It can all look the same to so much of us on many days, and that’s what we’re going to talk about on today’s episode of the show.

Before I introduce who my conversation will be with, today’s episode Startup Hustle is powered by fullscale.io. Hiring software developers is difficult and Full Scale can help you build a software team quickly and affordably. And it has a platform to help you manage that team. Visit fullscale.io to learn more.

With me today, I have Dr. Chris Jenson, and Chris is a senior health advisor at Diagnosing Education LLC. He’s also the author of After the mask, a guide to caring for students in schools. Chris’s interest in Education Redesign led to a competitive science ambassador fellowship with the senator for Disease Control and Prevention, where Chris worked as a public health with public health leaders and accomplished educators to improve the relevance and impact of classroom experiences. Wow! What does that mean? We’re going to talk all about that with someone who is definitely smarter than I am, in so many different ways. So I guess I should just go ahead and say Chris, welcome to Startup Hustle.

01:22.40
Chris Jenson
Thanks for having me Matt. It’s a pleasure to be here.

01:25.42
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, I like to start all the conversations that we have on the show with a little bit about your backstory. So let’s just go ahead and jump in and maybe decipher some of this scientific fellowship. And do I have to call you ambassador?

01:40.74
Chris Jenson
No, no, no I think Chris works fine. I’m glad you’re impressed by the nerd speak. I worked hard to get that nerd speak in my resume. Thanks so much. Yeah, you know Matt, my life has been guided by serendipity and a really good wife.

01:46.92
Matt DeCoursey
Hey congratulations. Yeah.

01:57.67
Chris Jenson
It is not a straight path. It is not a straightforward career. I launched out of college with hopes and determinations to go to med school and that’s exactly what I did. And I went through that whole process of med school residency and then practiced as a physician in a little bit of urgent care for more than a decade.

And then I hit a point in time where for various reasons, career and personal I had to make a change. And so I loved working with medical students and junior residents and saw value in education. So I made the very astute financial move to go from healthcare to teaching. Feel free to laugh now. But that did give me the opportunity to explore a completely different side of myself while I tried to figure out my next move.

And so I taught in publication public education. Taught science for 9 years and slowly built a consulting business. But the thing was, I really didn’t find my purpose until it dawned on me that I could combine my 2 favorite passions. That is medicine and education, and there are a lot of health issues in the school space in the business space. And there are public health issues that plague corporations and school districts that they don’t necessarily know how to handle. Because it’s outside their traditional skillset and so that’s where my passion fell coming in looking at the situation looking at the problem deriving the causes that are fueling the problem and then creating implementations that specifically mitigate those causes and as you alluded to right now.

03:29.57
Chris Jenson
Both in schools and businesses. Burnout’s a huge one.

03:33.91
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, and you know and burnout it comes in a lot of different shapes and forms and we’ve talked about this on startup hule before when it came to um, entrepreneurship you know we’ve had specific episodes about founders’ depression. And you know whether you’re an employee or a business owner and I know so many people that listen to this show are on the business owner or want to be on the business owner side and and we’ve said so many times you know entrepreneurship isn’t for everyone business ownership isn’t for everyone. That’s stressful, but and I want to. You know from the the world of career burnout. You guys heard Chris say that correctly he was an ah er doctor and burnout with it and I had a conversation with you once outside of the show where the the heavy weight. Of dealing with what happened in the ah er was having this effect on you outside of work and you know you had said something to me along the lines of you know it was hard. It’s hard to see a child in pain or die and then go home after work and have a normal life and.

04:38.82
Chris Jenson
Thank you.

04:41.32
Matt DeCoursey
You know and what a bold decision to to make such a change and yeah I got to commend you for that because like you you were you were kind of playfully joking with your own decisionmaking like not everyone walks away from that stuff but congratulations on on finding. Um you know, finding something that that. Moves you forward now with that you’re consulting business and I want to encourage everyone to go to diagnosingeducation.com there’s a link in the show notes that will make it so much easier for you to not have to learn how to spell diagnosing and while entering is something in the browser so scroll on down there and. And and take a click. Um, you know Chris you work with you’re you’re located here in Kansas City which is the homeless startup hustle. That’s also where I grew up and I know that you work with um, a lot of different businesses here locally so when you go to talk about career burnout or just working with. Businesses or even individuals. But where do you start.

05:41.79
Chris Jenson
Yeah, so some of it is business is reaching out to me other times. It’s me soliciting my services but either way the common thread is um, attrition rates in some of these high-stres jobs and you mentioned entrepreneurship which is one of the highest stress. You know everything’s riding on your novel idea in the infrastructure you try to create to promote it. But there is this phenomenon right now where the expanding pressures of work and the twenty four seven expectation to be available for work is a hard thing to negotiate. Because you know this better than I um, you know you’ve built quite the enterprise I’m working with an llc but what we have in common is that there’s always this desire to advance your business to be the best you can to accept the fact you’re going to have moments of failure and how do you retool and move forward. Um, and so you are grinding like there’s this nature to grind you. You want to? you know, see your ideas through and and maximize them. But at the same time you’re human and you know and what are you doing all this for presumably because you want to enjoy life. Well what does enjoy life mean to you you know and it can’t solely be your business. And so the interesting thing is I think as the world is changing rapidly and so are work demands and and we can get into the details and the weeds of this in a little bit but as work is changing rapidly and we’re on this international stage where you can contact anyone in the world any time through any platform of your choosing.

07:14.38
Chris Jenson
How do you adapt You know how do you adapt to that and how do you create limits and how do you work smarter not harder.

07:20.49
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, and you have a good point. The internet never closes and I mean that’s the that’s the 1 thing I’ve I’ve said to so many people when it. Yeah I’ve been saying that for over a decade because you know at 1 point before I did full scale. You know I was in the ticket business and we would get orders like. All night and before we installed some automation I remember having to wake up every couple hours and process orders so we didn’t sell things twice and I just remember like because because and someone said to me they’re like well that.

07:47.88
Chris Jenson
This is.

07:55.30
Matt DeCoursey
That just must be terrible and agonizing I’m like it’s not as terrible as sorting it out the next day you know so I I all these years later I tell people that the 1 thing that I’ve truly learned about business is that there’s no such thing as a business without problems. So.

07:58.93
Chris Jenson
Yeah.

08:13.81
Matt DeCoursey
Part of that is you know you’re constantly trying to solve them. You’re constantly putting out fires. There’s always something you can do better and you know and then for a lot of people if you ask them if you say well how much is enough their answer is just going to be more and.

08:28.92
Chris Jenson
Listen.

08:31.46
Matt DeCoursey
And and all this equates into this like continual cycle that that’s really hard to put down and um, you know much like yourself I’ve I’ve written ah a book or 2 and and my book balanced me I I talk a lot about trying to find that happy balance between your personal professional and physical life and the thing that. You know years later after having published that the thesis that I had with that was if any of those categories are grossly overattended in your life. The other ones will come back to create that balance and you know as ah as a physician you’ve seen it. Firsthand.

09:03.33
Chris Jenson
Is.

09:10.41
Matt DeCoursey
With the people that drive really hard and you know they don’t take care of their body. They don’t take care of their personal life and it’s really hard to run your business from a hospital bed is the thing and you know it’ll come back and get you So you know we’ve got this new phenomena.

09:21.61
Chris Jenson
Um.

09:28.26
Matt DeCoursey
Of Ai and chat gpt that’s come out and man. It’s pretty smart. Have you tried it first.

09:35.40
Chris Jenson
Ah, no I have not dove into that specific platform yet. But um I find myself and whenever I’m engaging with a customer service project I’m confident 99% of the time I’m now talking with a bot and I’m shockingly okay with it because they’re pretty helpful.

09:46.14
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, ah you might be yeah well so well I’ve been super impressed with it and so I clicked and I asked what I said what are 10 reasons for career burnout and it said number one was lack of control over your work tasks and decision making and that kind of.

10:00.75
Chris Jenson
Yeah, okay, good to know I’m on par with.

10:05.10
Matt DeCoursey
That plays well with what we were just saying though. It’s like that lack of control and so that’s the thing is like I say the internet never closes or there’s this.? Ah you know that was by the way I’m the one guilty of that little text chime that you heard and I reached up and clicked this magical button that says focus. And I turn a lot of the noise off man and I’ve I’ve really had to learn to do that and try to try to find ways you know, like back to the idea that the business will always have problems that means that you’re never done solving them. So like what what have you found is. Is like what are some simple things I like to start with the simple things now and like for me, that’s the the turning off of the notifications are out try to bundle things together like a lot of people. Get an email and want to reply to it on their phone right away or like slack messages or whatever. Do you have any simple things that that help you.

10:58.93
Chris Jenson
Yeah I do um and so we’ll see if I can match or beat chat gp today but I’ve got 5 things that I think ah are critical action items. Oh I’m going to lose that. But ah.

11:06.92
Matt DeCoursey
You have to do it faster than the ai is the thing.

11:13.44
Chris Jenson
But I’ll give you a best shot, But let’s start with what you alluded to so you know inability to escape Work. You talked about notifications. Um, so here’s the deal. You know there is a reasonable expectation especially you know speaking to the entrepreneurs or the business leaders out there. You want your employees to perform. When they’re in the workplace whether that’s remotely at their home. But the point is when they’re logged in on your time you want them to work hard and and that’s fine. That’s a reasonable expectation but on the flipside if you want that performance to persist over Time. You’ve got to then give them their own personal space and so how do we do that. There’s this general thought with technology of oh I’m thinking of something it’s work related I’ll shoot it out I can shoot it out on slack I can shoot it out on email I can send it by text. Whatever you know, but the point is um I think you have to respect if not promote your colleagues and employees around you. Of not giving you a response unless it’s a truly critical need I mean truly critical until the next work hour that they’re supposed to be available and you know now employees will differ in how they handle that I do the same thing I Always I am driven crazy when I see numbers on the icon for my email or text I have to know.

12:26.92
Matt DeCoursey
And.

12:28.55
Chris Jenson
And so my solution to that is I silenced my phone and watched so I don’t know the notifications exist and then within my own family I will tend not to address them. Um, you know until the next time I’m logged in for my Lc and working now there is this fear of missing out and you get over it quick. Really do because I will tell you there are very few emergencies after being an emergency room physician that you truly have to respond to immediately you might hype it up in your mind and think it’s that important. But to be honest and I know there are some you know it involves the infrastructure of your company or the trillion dollar deal you’ve been hoping for I get it. You’re on call those days but outside of that you know if you’re going to want your employees and colleagues to work hard then you’ve got to give them the space to then do whatever they need to to recharge. So they can work hard again for you the next day and because technology makes us available twenty four seven if you’re the company that’s going to send out information at all hours of the night okay fine that’s your so that’s your choice to operate that way but I would highly recommend if you want longevity and high performance of your employees. Create the expectation and understanding with them that I don’t expect you to respond to this until your next work hour I’m just sending it it now because it’s convenient for me and I hope that makes sense.

13:44.50
Matt DeCoursey
Well I have employees that are fourteen time zones ahead of me hundreds of them and so I mean we’re very much a twenty four seven enterprise and I try to make that clear because like for example, I got the notes about today’s show at five a m. Because here locally our show producer gets up to make sure that the show came out on time that the episode there you know, just that it that it wasn’t trash and so so I’m receiving that. But like we have set that expectation a quick ah quick thing here Chris I hope I don’t cause you to. That like spontaneously combusts. But what would you guess the number is on the email icon on my phone. Yeah.

14:30.46
Chris Jenson
Right now. Oh you’re pretty fast to respond but you’ve been stuck with me for 20 minutes I’m going to say 86 oh you’re one of those people. Ah, ah.

14:37.99
Matt DeCoursey
14185 yeah yeah I’m sorry I knew I know I know 87 would have been a dream some? Yeah yeah, so I know some people the the.

14:46.64
Chris Jenson
And here I liked you so much to this point? yeah.

14:56.83
Matt DeCoursey
I actually discourage the inbox 0 mentality because it’s like you said it’s that it’s that that slave to the traffic light kind of thing where it’s like stop. Go stop. Go there’s something I got to do but but yeah and you know there’s something that you said that I want to reiterate and you know not everything’s in emergency.

14:58.30
Chris Jenson
Are.

15:14.46
Chris Jenson
Is.

15:15.98
Matt DeCoursey
I mean are you dying? Yeah that’s an emergency is the building truly on fire. Yes, that’s an emergency but overall a lot of things can can ah you know be dealt with later and I and I’ve learned ah just a little back to these kind of simple things. If there is an issue and you might not be able to deal with it right away. Ah say you have a client a customer an employee a simple response that says hey this is important I recognize that I’ve got the next five hours are crazy for me I’ll get back to this and then just get back to it and I feel like some simple communication.

15:44.68
Chris Jenson
The.

15:52.50
Matt DeCoursey
So you are very on par with chat gp today Chris because ah the reasons for career burnout number 3 was a heavy workload or work life imbalance and then unclear or unrealistic job expectations. So yeah.

15:56.52
Chris Jenson
Ah, it’s good to know.

16:06.51
Chris Jenson
Yeah, so so let’s let’s talk about volume of workload because I think it actually segues well from what you just said and and the prior discussion. So we talked about not everything is an emergency but you have a company you’re proud of the company. It means something to you. You want to work hard. I think one of the things that’s happened, especially and you would know this better than me Matt but if you have an innovative company that’s kind of on the edge and trying something new. You’re pushing yourself every day to legitimize what you’re doing and get people excited about it and so you are venturing into territory that not necessarily has been. Exposed or dealt with before so your volume of workloads gonna be tough to anticipate as you uncover things. But what I’m getting at is you ask for? simple solutions learning how to triage right? I’m going to steal this one straight from healthcare learning how to triage what has to be done right now. What needs to be done soon. What ideally could be done before the end of the day and what needs to be done but really, it can wait and people get scared to triage because a lot of times they’re like well I’m not meeting my customer needs and I think you nailed it on the head. What I found in healthcare to be valuable.

17:10.38
Matt DeCoursey
And people here.

17:22.20
Chris Jenson
And I also found to be extremely valuable in education when you’re dealing with kids the most precious asset to a parent is just good communication. You know I don’t think many clients flinch at reality got your message I’m working solid till 7 am tomorrow but this is important to me and it’s my first item for tomorrow. I will be in touch what they don’t like is when they send you something they think is important and they hear nothing right? exactly exactly and and so now I mean and to be honest and and feel free to correct me Matt because this is more your field than mine. But if you.

17:44.36
Matt DeCoursey
Or here eight days later yeah

17:57.83
Chris Jenson
Give a reasonable explanation to a client of this is important I Will’t address that here’s the timeframe I can do it in because I’ve triaged what has to happen and what can wait and they come back with something snarky that may not be the client you want to work with. You know if you fiscally have that option. Because chances are they’re going to be making life difficult for you in other areas too. Um, now I say that with a.

18:17.24
Matt DeCoursey
But we’ve we’ve fired clients for that I mean that kind of stuff. It’s not necessarily just being snarky but treating our employees. So the the thing with full scale is you know, right? now we I have 300 employees and they and. Overwhelming the overwhelming number of them work for someone else’s company which is a real challenge because like right now we have 50 different clients all tech companies or so adjacent to it which means we have to adapt to 50 different work cultures and have our own.

18:48.45
Chris Jenson
Um, yeah.

18:48.77
Matt DeCoursey
And man and that’s a challenge so we’re on like hyper protective like almost to the point that I’m positive I’ve told clients no just because I got a sniff that they might you know like and that’s the thing. It’s like that back to like unrealistic so also on on the list. Ah, with it’s actually so I asked I asked the ai it’s weird that you have it’s the ai or and Ai I have struggling with the like gra like the proper grammar or pronouns with ai yeah right, right? right? right.

19:14.26
Chris Jenson
1

19:21.22
Chris Jenson
Um, it it must have been invented by the Ohio State University I’m guessing well.

19:26.33
Matt DeCoursey
I know you went to Notre Dame so I that is it the Notre Dame University it just sounds weird. Yeah I feel like when you say the Ohio State University that means like is there like an imposter one is there like a second one that is also competing.

19:28.98
Chris Jenson
I Don’t think they’re that highbrow yet. But yeah, they’d have to borrow the trademark from Osu so.

19:40.60
Chris Jenson
I don’t know I mean do they get like do they get an official checkbox on Twitter I mean I’m just wondering so show.

19:45.35
Matt DeCoursey
That trademark. Oh yeah, and that’s eight bucks a month now too which by the way I support elon paid a lot of money for that platform if you don’t like it. Don’t use it? Um, so ah, realistic goals and priorities man this is a big one in in in my world because.

19:54.36
Chris Jenson
There you go.

20:04.54
Matt DeCoursey
When it kind. Okay so building technology has a lot of really open-ended answers. How long. Is it going to take how much is it going to cost. What’s it going to do? What should it do? What shouldn’t it do and a lot of times that like 1 of the things we look for is that our clients have some idea like they know what they’re doing on some. Little level because they have a much better set of expectations. So a lot of times when we when we’re evaluating whether or not we want to work with the client and they’re non-technical.

20:23.99
Chris Jenson
Stuff.

20:34.81
Matt DeCoursey
We want to make sure that they understand what those because the thing is is as an entrepreneur or someone that’s innovating and building or really even paying for services if you feel like it’s slow or it’s behind ah creates pressure and stress and that is not when you are your best.

20:52.39
Chris Jenson
Prison.

20:53.33
Matt DeCoursey
Person and you know that’s also why having the right people around to do work with you is good and that’s why I’ll remind everyone that finding expert software developers doesn’t have to be difficult, especially when you visit fullscale io where you can build a software team quickly and affordably. You can use full scales platform to define your technical needs and then see which available developers testers and leaders are ready to join your team fullscale io to learn more why you’re down there clicking that link make sure you go visit diagnosingeducation dot com sorry I had to squeeze a little. To pay the bills there a little bit Chris but but yeah, the the goals and the expectations. But let’s talk about the people that are around you because like being able to delegate and have someone else to pass things off to or you know like there’s nothing better than well most you don’t see people went. Championship teams have more than just one star player on you know on in so many shapes and forms and they usually have the least one but you know a couple and it’s important to have people that can help you carry that workload or and. In my case I’m just a big fan of the partner employee or so or or whoever that loves doing the stuff that you don’t.

22:11.31
Chris Jenson
Yeah, yeah, and I think it’s practically you know you want people you can trust or rely on for a whole host of reasons but also from an operations model. So I’m going to weave in and and and bring us back to a volume of workload again. If your volume of workload is high. You’re going to have to decide what you want to handle in terms of that workload and if you’re by yourself what priority you’re going to give that now if you’re blessed to have other employees your triage becomes very important in regards to who you work with so. You got your level 1 priorities. This has to be addressed now like right now you’ve got your level 2 priorities still emergent but it can fall after level one so we want it done as quick as possible but it’s not an immediate threat That’s what I’m going to delegate to someone that I trust right? and I’m going to take a lot of stress off my plate because while I’m dealing with the. Fire in the building metaphorically they’re taking care of another important item and you know what everything below level 2 is stuff that yeah I want to do it I want to address it I know it exists but let’s be honest, it can wait and I sent those emails to the clients explaining this is important I will address it and what you told me but here’s my timeline. Right? And we’re going to work a way down and so to to your point having an operations model where you work efficiently is really dependent on working with good people right? I mean you cannot be all things to all needs at all times you can’t.

23:42.32
Chris Jenson
And so you’re going to have to delegate things and being smart about how you delegate and then if you’re blessed with lots of employees who’s good at this who’s in their wheelhouse who’s my go-to person. It’s Delegated. It’s done. It needs to be out of your mind and if you’ve you know, worked with them. Professionally, they’re going to get back to you and say hey mad I Want to let you know that item 32 is done you know and and you you have that reassurance. Um I think about in the emergency Department. You know what do you do when you’re on an overnight shift and you get 3 critical patients at the same time.

24:14.86
Matt DeCoursey
But what do you do for real. How do you handle that.

24:15.89
Chris Jenson
That’s not a what if game that’s reality that’s ah, your triage and so there is one of me and I can only be in 1 spot. So what will I do I’m gonna see all 3 patients quickly as fast as I can I’m gonna send my best nurses into the rooms after I’ve seen them and I know things that I can start so okay I’ve got. You know, ah car accident ah chest pain and um, someone who’s bleeding after I’ve laid eyes on all 3 I can tell the nurses to start things get things rolling delegate a process that’s going to benefit that individual until I know more certain labs certain things certain consultants. I’m going to spew out that information and the very talented nurses that I’m blessed to work with are going to make those operations happen while I’m focusing on something that a doctor has to do right here and now and once that’s done then I switch rooms and the nurses take over the level 2 priorities in that room I just left you know and a business. And a lot of ways can run like that I’m triaging my business needs. What do I as the Ceo need to address? What is a Ceo level problem that needs my attention right? This second and the other things I’m going to delegate to people below me that I trust once I’m done with this Ceo problem I will shift. And I’ll reshuffle what my workers are doing because I’m available now for something else. Um, and it’s the same triage mindset.

25:35.41
Matt DeCoursey
You see you said a couple things that that have been a popular popular topic for me lately. So in in a very shocking move to my employees about two months ago I hired a mindfulness coach and. Um, have really helped tremendously you said the phrase get it out of your mind and there’s something that she has said to me that so she is what I would classify as a non-technical kind of person but ah, but always refers to the programming. And I was talking about some stuff and she just said to me the most the the simplest things you realize it’s just you that’s choosing to be upset about that and I was like wow you know like you’re 100% right? and.

26:22.89
Chris Jenson
Is.

26:32.96
Matt DeCoursey
And you know the idea that okay, it’s back to that. Not everything’s an emergency like there are things that you are rightfully stressed about and then there’s a whole bunch of other shit that you’re choosing to be stressed about and then there’s 1 other thing you said that was is this a Ceo level thing so part of what.

26:44.61
Chris Jenson
Yeah, yeah.

26:52.25
Matt DeCoursey
As I entered this process of trying to prevent myself from career burnout and you know like and so I well what’s bothering you Matt like what’s the what’s the main. What are we working on here and I said you know I feel like I die a death by a thousand tiny cuts on so many days. Okay, well explain to me what your day is. Went through this whole thing and get the response almost none of that sounds like what a Ceo of a three hundred person Inc 5000 award-winning companies should be doing. Okay, you’re right? so okay so I validated that what next.

27:23.20
Chris Jenson
This is.

27:29.63
Matt DeCoursey
Need to find someone that’s going to do all of this stuff. Why are you continuing to do it. We show up and continue to do a lot of stuff and we get busy and we tell ourselves I don’t have time to teach someone else. How to do it I can do it faster Blah Blah blah. And the fact is is every time you continue to do that stuff and not delegate or train someone else to do it. You just continue to sentence yourself to a life of doing all that crap. Whatever it is We all have crap that we don’t want to do and.

27:58.36
Chris Jenson
Yep.

28:02.10
Matt DeCoursey
If it’s not and the thing is is if you don’t like doing it or you don’t want to do it or you’re not good at doing it. You probably won’t do it at all which of it’s a little fire at that point gives it well sometimes those little fires just smolder out and go away like in time management they like to say.

28:14.91
Chris Jenson
Listen.

28:19.74
Matt DeCoursey
1 of the worst things you can do is take something that didn’t even need to be done and do it really well like gold played it crush it you know like just do an a triple plus job at it and then sometimes the things that go unattended, get even worse but they all kind of swell up in your head. And then your head explodes as basically the feeling.

28:40.60
Chris Jenson
Yeah I mean I think that’s an outstanding point and you know when you talk about all these little things that you might want to address or you feel the pressure of the poll to address I could do it faster by the time I explained to this person I could have done. The problem is like you said you’re pulling yourself away from the higher level stuff that you need to be doing. And and this is a guess on my part but I suspect that a lot of that is because when you grew your company. You started out I don’t know what by yourself and then you grew and Grew and grew. Yeah, and so you were used to doing everything and it’s tough to give up that mindset. But as you advance you have to and and flip the perspective.

29:08.30
Matt DeCoursey
Necessity Yeah necessity.

29:19.15
Chris Jenson
Right? So if I work for you and I know I’m capable of doing something but I see you doing it to be honest I’m like what’s the deal am I being micromanaged or you just not happy with my performance and one of the things that burns your employees out is loss of autoy right? I mean you you. Have got to create a situation where they’re not just coming in and punching the clock and feeling like they’re there to do x y z and then leave I mean if you want to add to their value show it and so again, if if you hire the right people and you trust them. It’s you know you reaching out by phone hey Chris. I have got this on my plate I need you to take care of this the end goal would be this It’s up to you how we get there. Do you understand the goal. Yep I got the goal that and then you give me the freedom of taking care of right? You’ve told me what you.

30:05.58
Matt DeCoursey
You you took you took out another item on the Ais list number 5 a lack of support from supervisors or colleagues right.

30:13.50
Chris Jenson
Right? Which which to be honest I mean if if I’m working for someone who’s telling me in a prescriptive fashion. How to do my job I mean unless I’m a year or 2 for retirement. Why the hell would I stay right? because I’m just coming in and doing exactly what you tell me. But if I’m working for someone who trusts me and says you know and I want to know what my boss wants like what is your outcome. What is your end goal. How do I know I performed correctly and once they explain that to me just get out of my way and let me do it I’ll make sure I hit the end Goal. You made it clear you know and.

30:47.72
Matt DeCoursey
The trust trust is the Keyw word in that though and’s you know and and yeah you can spend a lifetime building trust and destroy it in moments and that’s that’s the weird thing about trust and you know whether it’s your employees your employer any of that.

30:52.20
Chris Jenson
Yes.

30:57.35
Chris Jenson
Correct.

31:05.94
Matt DeCoursey
Trust factor and man I got to tell you that’s the hardest part though when it comes to business ownership is finding people that are going to continue to do that reliable thing think intuitively and grow. Um, you know which leads us to the next item on. That that the ai sent us here. Chris is this lack of opportunities for growth and advancement. Um, this is something I’ve run into I’ve been pretty open about talking about this at full scale because you know back to that serving all these different companies and we’ve got all these employees and many of them. You know we’ll be 5 years old um in 2023 and we have people that have been with this for 4 years that you know they’re saying hey what’s my career path here and and so we’ve had to and that became even more difficult to navigate due to the pandemic and everyone being remote because I can’t it’s not It’s not as straightforward for us to have.

31:44.65
Chris Jenson
Is he.

31:59.33
Matt DeCoursey
Ah, vocational workshop or or in-house training like I mean I’d have to have people coming from a lot of different directions and doing that So we’ve we’ve been trying to to manage that um I also realized that that the quote lack of opportunities are career path.

31:59.59
Chris Jenson
Is he.

32:18.31
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, also just translates to many people is how do I make more money. Um, and and you know that and so that when it comes to not wanting to burn out a team or yourself like I mean the reality is is that people in general are happier when they have this ah have a purpose driven.

32:20.13
Chris Jenson
Is a.

32:35.58
Matt DeCoursey
Lifestyle or life and that’s something so we just at Fall Scale. We just went through defining a lot of that and you know art. What so you have to ask yourself at your business. Why do we exist as a business like what’s the purpose that we serve. And begin to matriculate that message out to your staff and for us it’s we we exist to serve our clients and through this service to our clients. Our goal is to help them win. How does that? What does that look like who man it’s different I mean that is like that’s a snowflake.

33:02.34
Chris Jenson
Ism.

33:09.60
Matt DeCoursey
Level of uniqueness that exists in any different organization. But my business partner and and often co-host on the on here on startup hustle says all the time your employees just want to know if if we or they are winning or losing. And that level of transparency really kind of defines it and I find that there’s a lot of people that well I mean Chris I don’t have a 100 % employee retention rate. So not everyone’s meant to make it like there is like this darwinistic quality to careers and business and and a lot of that that. Sometimes people begin to understand that where they’re out in your organization isn’t the right place and I have helped I have helped people free up their future. Um, sometimes that’s my decision sometimes that’s theirs. But the fact is is that that.

33:55.94
Chris Jenson
This is.

34:04.13
Matt DeCoursey
Unhappy unhappy beacons that are spreading that that negative light or or lack of everywhere can really have an effect on everything you do? So I think that you know one of the things we talk about the people we work with and the people we work around and all of that is. Sometimes you just got to sit back and maintain like you know is there a toxic element. That’s here is it me is it Someone else is it a lot of things and and that’s a tough balance as an employer because at the same time I have this policy of not saying that dog shit is anything other than that.

34:38.63
Chris Jenson
This is.

34:40.99
Matt DeCoursey
So it’s like I don’t know man it ah it is and you know you talked about the triage thing we often refer to that as plate spinning you know, like the you know you have running around as the entrepreneur and you know that means some some days I’m the Chief bottlewasher and.

34:54.17
Chris Jenson
Right.

34:57.13
Matt DeCoursey
So yeah I say ah the Ceo actually stands for chief everything officer who which is it’s true so you got to do a lot of stuff so you know I mean a lot of different things all right? So that and that by the way that led us to to number 8 on the list.

34:59.59
Chris Jenson
2

35:12.83
Matt DeCoursey
Um, which was exposure to excessive stress or conflict. Um, but but and not I’m not really trying to plug my book balance me here but 1 of the things that was in there I have a whole entire chapter about communication. It has to do with personality styles because the conflict that occurs.

35:15.51
Chris Jenson
Is a.

35:32.76
Matt DeCoursey
So much in life is because 1 personality style is different than another doesn’t mean 1 is right? or 1 ne’s better or the other but that is a clash so I learned that because you know so twenty years ago I was having a difficult time making sales to people that didn’t have my own personality style.

35:50.10
Chris Jenson
Yeah, yeah.

35:51.67
Matt DeCoursey
Read a book about it and I and I became I became a lot more self-aware um about how how my message can be heard So Remember if you’re trying to communicate anything. It’s best received in the language that the recipient wants to hear it in so some. Sometimes it needs to be a little more softspoken. Sometimes you got to really make the point but it works in a lot of different ways. But but stress always clouds that.

36:21.37
Chris Jenson
Yeah, it does and you know the the skill of knowing how to talk to people and depending on the situation. What level of directness you’re going to use to talk um is it I mean. It’s not even enough to say it’s a critical skill. It’s it’s probably 1 of the most important skills. Um in any career field but you know interesting a little bit of an anecdote but there was a client that I worked with um and one of their problems was that they had hired. 3 or different people in the last two years for a particular leadership role and um, first of all the the goals of that leadership role were ill-defined. Um, believe it or not and so we worked on making them incredibly concrete. Um, where they could be assessed quantitatively instead of just gestal. Which I mean it’s really hard to know are you winning or losing as you said when you don’t know the metric you know that you’re up against um, but the second thing we talked about was when you make your next hire for this role have you considered in this glorious job description that you wrote.

37:25.15
Matt DeCoursey
3 of Wendy was after this.

37:26.71
Chris Jenson
Writing the personality of the person you want to fill it and they said no and I said well why would you not is there some Hr guideline that prevents that and you know obviously there’s not and I said make it fair make it fair right out of the gate and get the right person and then on the flip Side. You got to have faith that you hired the right person and I understand they’re new and you’re going to ease them in and you’re going to be incrementally increasing their level of responsibility. But at some point have faith that you hired the right personality with the right skills give them the task and get out of the way.

38:01.37
Matt DeCoursey
This is a known thing though like for like type a people usually don’t make good accountants. They really don’t I mean I’m a high type a person and I’m a terrible accountant I mean I know how to do it but I hate doing it and I don’t have the patience and I give you an example because.

38:02.47
Chris Jenson
Um, and I’m happy to say it.

38:07.58
Chris Jenson
Yeah.

38:19.52
Matt DeCoursey
An accountant has to make things balance and when it’s off by a penny. They might have to spend a lot of time finding that penny I Just write the penny off and see that’s not the right way to do it and and but but you have a great point. It’s also like customer service people are better.

38:26.27
Chris Jenson
Right? yeah.

38:35.62
Chris Jenson
This is.

38:36.41
Matt DeCoursey
Type b because that’s ah, that’s more of a listening persona on that side where the type a would be like f. You lady you know and that’s not really great customer service but you have a really good point with defining that and you know and and with that as well. You’ll find that different personalities will. Bring us to number 9 on the list which say a lack of meaning or fulfillment in 1 ne’s work I wouldn’t find a lot of personally find a lot of fulfillment and a customer support role I could do it because I know how to say I’m sorry you feel that way. We’ll see if we can fix that. But some people just live to do that kind of stuff and and those people are the ones that will say to me. They’re like dude I don’t know how you do what you do like it would just it would make me crazy and I say you know what? thank you for doing what you do so I don’t have to do it. You know and that’s.

39:18.84
Chris Jenson
Easy.

39:28.46
Matt DeCoursey
There’s a lot to be said there now once again with me today is Dr. Chris Jensen senior health advisor at diagnosingeducation lllc you can go to diagnosingeducation dot com there’s a link in the show notes for that Chris is available. To be hired to help you or your company just reach out and there are a lot of different services and stuff. Um I know firsthand he he works with some of my clients and they say amazing stuff about him. Um, here in this modern world of employment. Um.

40:01.89
Matt DeCoursey
There’s an expectation of providing some access to mental health tools. We actually just did that at the full scale office in the Philippines we have a mental health advisor to help with all that and just like here’s the thing is like I mean there’s a lot of different stuff that you can deal with so Chris we. Arrive at the end of our time here today I mean what are what are some of the like when you think about career burnout and and we’ll encompass that across because yes as a business owner you can be burnout with your business as much as an employee can. Like I mean I know we asked Ai and a lot of other other different things and then there’s like reality like what are some of the I mean after this conversation and all of your experience I mean what are what are the top things that you’re going to recommend right.

40:47.95
Chris Jenson
I mean so action planwise and then gestalt thinking action plan-wise triage your volume of work sometimes you can’t control the volume that comes at you but you can determine how you delegate what you address and the order you take it in the second thing is you need to create an environment where you don’t feel isolated. If. It’s you against the world. You’re going to lose so that’s having peers and colleagues you can network with that’s people you can reach out to no one knows everything. What’s your support system. Don’t fall into a trap of I have to do everything because you will as you said earlier die a death of a thousand cuts um inability to escape work. A lot of that falls on us. How do we set limitations when do we ignore notifications. What do we do to ignore prompts. Do we go hide our phone in a drawer. You know you will be more productive if you’ve recharged that is undeniable right? But if work is a twenty four seven process good luck with that. Um loss of control and autonomy. If you feel like you’re not in a situation where you’re valued and you don’t have the respect and autonomy you deserve then what incremental changes instead of being upset about it. What incremental changes can you do can you make and engage with to earn that autonomy and get that value back in your job and if you can’t do it at the company you’re at. Maybe that’s a sign. It’s time to move. Um, and then you know the ah the last one that I would say it’s more of aal thing I think it’s really important for people to sit back and realize that career burnout you know is not an individual shortcoming. It is not.

42:24.20
Chris Jenson
Connected to or correlated with your personal resilience. Ironically people with some of the highest drive the highest determination and the highest resiliency are the ones that often work themselves to the bone more so than an individual that’s that’s more relaxed about their job. And so it’s not a sign of there being an issue with you. It’s usually systemic changes that are in front of you and whether it’s you starting your business or you being part of a large corporation.. There are always system operations that you can look at and say okay so what’s driving me crazy I already understand that I feel frustrated and Tired. What is driving me Crazy. What’s driving that process. What are the causes behind that process. How do I address those causes some you may not be able to fix most of them you will right? So Then where do I put my time and effort to fix them. But what I want people to realize or what I hope people to realize is. It’s not Burnout is not a reflection of you as an individual burnout is a reflection of a system process that you’re up against so please don’t put extra stress on yourself thinking. There’s something wrong with you when in reality, it’s simply a process you need to remediate mitigate because I don’t think the error is the individual. I Think the error is the workflow setup.

43:41.46
Matt DeCoursey
Well said Sir um, because I’m an entrepreneur and I don’t understand words like distalt. Um I I went ahead and asked the Ai what that was because why not. Um, Gestalt I like to define things anyone that lays acronyms down or anything like that Gestalt Psychology is a school of psychology that focuses on organization of mental experiences particularly perceptions and the relationship between them which you know So’s the thing is perception is reality.

44:07.81
Chris Jenson
Yep.

44:11.34
Matt DeCoursey
If the people that work for you or yourself perceive 1 thing that um even if they are the only are you they are. You are the only person that that has that perception on some level. That’s the reality people have argued this point with me but I do believe that like if if someone else thinks you’re a jerk on. On their level. You’re a jerk It’s just kind of the way it goes um, really in the end when it comes to today’s topic and we talked about so many different things I think the key I think the key thing here is is ask for help like ask for help from the people around you from anyone.

44:30.30
Chris Jenson
Right.

44:36.15
Chris Jenson
Start.

44:41.64
Chris Jenson
This is.

44:47.92
Matt DeCoursey
Or if you’re in a spot where you just don’t feel healthy at all, ask some. I mean get outside the company. Go find it. Ask for help. The hardest problems to solve are the ones that no one knows exist. And that’s why you have to have this level of sharing and and asking. If you own a business and you feel overloaded, find people to help you. It will free you up to do 1000000 things. I’ve spent a lot of time over the last couple of years studying the traits and qualities and actions and processes that geniuses do. And the elements that come into that. And they all have to be untethered by negativity and that comes in 2 forms; self-doubt and people around you. So you know, it’s much like any virus that would spread. Negativity is on that list. So I think that it’s so much easier to feel better about a lot of stuff when you have that not in your life once again. Dr Chris, thanks for joining me. I’m going to catch up with you down the road man.

46:02.92
Chris Jenson
It was an absolute pleasure, and I appreciate you. Take care of yourself and I’m glad I came close to the Bots level of proficiency. That’s the highest accolade I’ve received this year.

46:07.65
Matt DeCoursey
So I think you nailed it. That’s a pretty big compliment because this this looks pretty smart. Yeah. So all right, I’m gonna go ask it, why I’m not as smart. So I’ll see you around man.

46:19.86
Chris Jenson
Ah, thank you so much Matt. All right, take care.