How Recruiting Works

Hosted By Matt DeCoursey

Full Scale

See All Episodes With Matt DeCoursey

Casey Wright

Today's Guest: Casey Wright

President - Chief of Staff KC

Ep. #804 - How Recruiting Works

In this Startup Hustle episode, Matt DeCoursey talks with the President of Chief of Staff KC, Casey Wright. They discuss how recruiting works and the secrets to successfully hiring the right people.

Covered In This Episode

Getting the right people in your company is an art that few have mastered. How exactly does one recruit the talent that your project or organization needs? How important is salary? What are job seekers looking for?

Matt converses with recruiting veteran and expert Casey Wright about the secrets of recruitment. They discuss what matters the most in recruiting talent, from cultural fit to what makes someone leave a job. Casey shares that recruiting works differently from market to market. They also talk about how companies need to adjust to the current trends to hire the needed talent.

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Join their conversation to learn more about how recruiting works in this Startup Hustle episode.

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  • Guest’s background (1:38)
  • Recruitment is different from market to market (2:55)
  • How cultural fit matters in recruitment (4:11)
  • Focusing on quality (7:46)
  • Assessing a recruit (8:45)
  • What makes people leave a job (20:59)
  • Adjusting to changes: WFH shift (24:06)
  • Referrals (33:45)
  • What makes prospects take a job (42:19)
  • Founder’s Freestyle (53:11)
Matt DeCoursey and Casey Wright

Key Quotes

We focus on quality, quality, quality, not just volume. You can’t interview five people and expect to have five good candidates. You might have to interview 100 to get five good candidates. But you know, so you have to go through a lot. But it gets easier with time, for sure.

Casey Wright

I am personally of the belief that the very best people to hire are already employed somewhere else. They’re not out like knocking on doors with an application in their hand. You know, that’s a bit of a red flag. If that’s the case, and you know, honestly, if you’re a software developer that’s unemployed, I want to know why.

Matt DeCoursey

Now, really, in the end, you can have the greatest recruiters in the world. But if you’re recruiting people into a company that sucks and a culture that sucks, you’re not gonna you’re not you’re gonna have zero wins.

Matt DeCoursey

Here’s the best way to hire. Listen, it’s not just us finding good talent. We need our clients to know how to operate too. And they need to adjust, and they need to pivot. We’re pushing our clients to move quickly. Of course, people think, oh, that’s self-serving. The faster you get a deal close, and you get paid, etc. It’s not that it’s because people are gonna be off the market. I mean, I’ve been taught time kills all deals. That’s, that’s one thing that is absolutely true and has always been true. But sometimes you need to read the room.

Casey Wright

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Rough Transcript

Following is an auto-generated text transcript of this episode. Apologies for any errors!

Matt DeCoursey 0:00
And we’re back! Back for another episode of Startup Hustle, Matt DeCoursey here to have another conversation, I’m hoping helps your business grow. So if you own a business, then you probably have a hard time with recruiting. There is so much headline, all kinds of articles and the great resignation is supposedly occurring. And really in the end, every business owner seems to have a hard time recruiting and finding the right people to do the job. Now, if you’ve listened to the show, you know, I’m also in this business and so as today’s guest and before I get into that today’s episode, Startup Hustle is sponsored by Gusto. Gusto has modern solutions for modern HR problems, whether it’s talent management, payroll, or onboarding. Gusto HR platform has it all for you to be smarter than your competitors. You can try a three month free subscription now just sign up at forward slash Startup Hustle. Once again, forward slash Startup Hustle. And with me today, I’ve got someone else that works in the recruiting and staffing business. And you know, that’s what we do at Full Scale helping you build a team of developers. With me today is Casey. Right. And Casey is the President of Chief of Staff KC and they do a whole lot of recruiting, headhunting placement, whatever it is, you want to call it, I’m gonna let him probably better define it. But first off, Casey, Welcome to Startup Hustle.

Casey Wright 1:25
Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this.

Matt DeCoursey 1:27
Yeah, I am, too. And with that, let’s get to let’s go ahead and start a conversation with a little bit of backstory about you and what you guys do at Chief of Staff.

Casey Wright 1:38
Sure. So I’ve been in the recruiting business for 16 years now. I kind of fell into it. I don’t think too many people grew up thinking that they’re going to be recruiters when they grow up. And quite frankly, I don’t even know what that meant. Someone told me I should be a headhunter. And that sounded illegal or immoral, at least but or violent, which meant, you know, but no, so I had the opportunity to purchase Chief of Staff, June of 2019. And so we’ve been around 10 years in the business. Based in Brookside, October was our 10th anniversary, we do finance and accounting, administrative HR, sales and operations. Anywhere from the top executive to entry level, everything in between direct hire, temporary temp to hire, and we’ve been growing like crazy.

Matt DeCoursey 2:21
Yeah, you guys have much like Full Scale received accolades for being a fast growing business a great place to work, stuff like that. And, you know, it’s there. It’s a big industry man, recruiting, though, is a specialty. that not everyone’s really good at,

Casey Wright 2:41
I would say very few are good at it, actually. So.

Matt DeCoursey 2:44
So I mean, so as you know, let’s just dive right in. And like so when you say we, today’s episode is titled How recruiting works, how does recruiting work?

Casey Wright 2:54
There’s a lot of different elements of recruiting, and it’s different. You know, depending on the level, depending on the industry, depending on the specialty of the person, I think the thing that a lot of people don’t recognize is how much it differs, just market to market. You know, I’ve got friends that own recruiting firms, and about the top 50 markets in the US. And every single one of them does it completely differently. I mean, I’ve done trainings up in Omaha, in which geographically is close to us, and, you know, relatively similar size, their approach is completely different than how we do it here in Kansas City. And that’s why I like the fact that we’re Kansas City-based company, and we focus here in town, because it is drastically different than even how you guys probably do it. And how my competitors do it and whatnot.

Matt DeCoursey 3:37
So yeah, we’re gonna talk a little bit about that, too. And, you know, for me, for us how recruiting works is we have a very small strike zone, you know, we’re, and you kind of do too, you know, you rattled off a whole lot of things. But you’re you are a specialty in many regards me. I, in my past conversations with you a lot related to like leadership, because C suite CFOs. I know you guys do more than that. But for us, it’s developers, largely developers, developers, testers and leaders. All in the Philippines. Yep. So not only is it different, it’s the other side of the world.

Casey Wright 4:11
Well, and I think in what you guys do, the technical skills are absolutely the number one most important thing. Technical skills are important. But most of what we focus on, I personally think the cultural fit exceeds the importance of the technical skills. So that’s why we chose the areas that we do focus on right now. We’re growing; we’ll launch additional divisions eventually. But there are certain areas that I didn’t dive right into right away because I don’t think they had as much of an emphasis on the cultural fit, which is everything we’re about.

Matt DeCoursey 4:41
So when we talk about a cultural fit, let’s define that a little bit. Because that’s important to us too. But, but in a different way than it is to you.

Casey Wright 4:51
Sure, um, I mean, cultural fit can mean a million different things. And I’ve told a lot of stories many times I’m sure if my team’s listening to this though, they’ll laugh at me because they’ve heard a lot of my stories, but you know, it’s, it’s understanding just how they’re going to connect on a personal level. You know, a lot of times, I’ll ask people where they went to high school, and I want to take a quick dig, it’s, we’re not in St. Louis, I don’t do that to value you as a person. I do that to see how you’re going to jive with somebody, I mean, I’ve got clients that are based, or you know, they’re born and raised in a farming community out in western Kansas, and this person came up in a similar, you know, style of background, they’re going to, they’re going to mesh much more closely than somebody that grew up in an urban area typically, or, you know, that have similar values, there’s a lot of different things that could find the culture. But some of that just comes down to a gut, we get to know our clients really well, we get to know our candidates really well, we’re like, I know they’re gonna, they’re gonna understand each other.

Matt DeCoursey 5:49
Our process is way different, exact like it. First off, I need volume, Jeff has we only hire one in 40 people, and much like yourself looking for a very specific type of person. We also have to run our recruits through a gauntlet of certifications and assessments, which we had to create ourselves for a couple of reasons. So like, if you’re recruiting for tech talent, you got to know that they can do the job. It’s kind of like if you were trying to hire a guitarist, like whoever’s trying to hire a guitarist, you’re like, hey, play something. Yep. You know, and if if they play, it’s just like, clearly garbage, you’re like, okay, so you’re not really a guitarist. For us, that’s wildly different. As far as like, well, first off, we had to create our assessments, because the tools that are out there, realistically find the answers somewhere online. Absolutely. So you had to have an integrity with that. And then similarly, you know, if they make it past that, we then have to put them through looking for like, a lot of intangible things like, for us, when we talk about a cultural fit, we want to find people that are passionate about working with the technology, because if they’re not lined up properly, then they won’t feel comfortable and that cultural fit. Sure. Also, like, I don’t know, just a lot of stuff. Communication is a key. Yep. For us. If you’re going to build software, and you have poor communication, it’s game over, because and it’s also frustrating for clients. So that’s a challenge for us is, fortunately, the Philippines is remarkably user-friendly for American Americans, a general and English language. So that’s still like it, that’s something that you can be technically amazing. If you don’t speak English, or can’t get a job, because you can’t communicate with clients. Now, I feel like you guys are probably a little smaller batch, like you, I get like go through anywhere from 500 to 1000 applicants a month.

Casey Wright 7:46
Sure, sure. We, this is always a challenge with talking to my team, we focus on quality, quality, quality, not just volume. I think the vast majority of my competitors are focused more on volume than they are quality. But to get to quality, you have to sift through a bunch of stuff too. So that’s something I coach my team on all the time. You can’t interview five people and expect to have five good candidates, you might have to interview 100 to get five good candidates. But you know, so you have to go through a lot. But it gets easier with time for sure. I mean, the longer you’re in this, the better your connections are, the more referrals you have the trusted referral partners that you have, eventually, the years and years that you put into it, make it that you don’t have to interview 100 people to get five good ones anymore.

Matt DeCoursey 8:31
We don’t interview all 40 to hire one shot, actually, those certifications are our first line of defense. So if they don’t if they don’t have like a top 20% score, like it’s game over,

Casey Wright 8:41
I mean screening to some degree. Yeah.

Matt DeCoursey 8:45
And I mean, we’ve literally had to build, we built our own software platform to accommodate it to do exactly what we needed and how we needed it. And, you know, that’s a whole whole other thing. Now, I with? I don’t how do you assess a recruit? Because if I’m looking for a CFO, there’s not a coding test for that?

Casey Wright 9:04
No, and I don’t want to downplay the value and technical skills because the people we play still have to have, you know, a solid technical background or whatever it is, I think it is less valuable than it is for for what you guys are focused on. But like I said, some of it is just gut. You know, my background in Psychology. That’s what I studied in college, I wanted to be come a psychiatrist, that was my ultimate plan. Life took me down a different path. And I ended up becoming a recruiter, but every single day, I’m using all the stuff that I learned and that and, you know, I think a lot of that is I chose to study psychology because it’s what I was naturally interested in. But reading people was a strength of mine since I was a child too.

Matt DeCoursey 9:42
And I could make a strong case for the fact that that a recruiter as as a shrink in some ways because, well first off, you do have to gain a strong grasp on what makes people tick. Absolutely. You put someone on a roll they’re not happy with, they’re not going to stay, for sure. And everyone’s wired differently. You know, like, I mean, I’m a high type A kind of person. And that doesn’t make me a good mix with a lot of people and makes me an ideal mix with others.

Casey Wright 10:12
Absolutely. No. And I said, it’s some of its gut, but we do have, we do have different tests that we can put them through to, you know, make it more scientific, but I’m not wrong very often on this, and nor are my, my, my teammates, the guys that work with me. Some of it’s trial and error, you know, it takes time it takes years of experience to figure this out, the way I was trained, I guess, trained, because I never went through any formal training this business. But what I was taught when I got in this industry, compared to now is night and day different approach, I, I spend very little time diving deeply into certain skill sets, which is all I was taught to do originally 95% of my conversations, whether it’s with a client or a candidate has very little to do with the actual job. I know what the jobs are, by now, I’ve done this long enough, I see a resume, I glanced through it, I have a pretty darn good understanding. I know the company they work for I know their backgrounds. Now, when it’s a specific job that comes up, I might dive in and rehash it with them, how much of this have you done, you know, what percent of your time was doing this, but the 95% of the time talking to them, is just getting to know who they are as a person, what what’s important to them, what’s their, their family life, like, and especially now, during, you know, since the pandemic, there’s so many other things that people are focused on, about a job, other than just what the pay is, and just what the responsibilities are. So that’s why I take the time to really get to know them. Every person that I place, that we place, we’ve usually spent hours and hours, multiple people, sometimes for several years, I mean, I’ve placed people, the day I meet them, I place people 15 years after meeting them. So it’s a it’s a long relationship. It’s not just a alright, are you a fit for this job? It’s I’m going to be looking for you whether you’re looking or not.

Matt DeCoursey 11:57
I feel like the longer someone’s job experience and track record is, the easier it is to trigger the gut feeling sure, like you know, especially when in leadership roles like if you’ve been a leader at some are so we have that same thing. There are some places that I’m certain hate us in the Philippines because we continue to hire their talent, I don’t understand why they even let it out the door. Yeah. But that said, we we I think that that’s an important part of recruiting as you know, you heard terms like BI business intelligence, well, you can get some pretty predictable skills, qualities and no likes. And it’s funny, because at Full Scale, so we got 230 people expected, push that closer to 400, by the end of the year, it’s awesome. It’s also changed for us. Because, you know, when you’re looking at one in 31 and 40 people, you can begin to get near the bottom of the barrel pretty quickly. And, you know, it’s, it’s a challenge. So, you know, we’ve had to broaden the geography that we’ve recruited. And the pandemic kind of did us a favor in that regard just to push us to remote and we’re like, okay, fine, we’ll just hire anywhere in the Philippines. But But yeah, it’s been, you know, and then overall, like it is, there are some things that are opposite of what you think because in some cases, with technical recruiting, you can look at someone that been at the same job for 12 straight years isn’t necessarily a strong point. Because oftentimes, those people are institutionalized. They are all they’re really good at operating and driving within the lands of that company provides, and then they get out into other things. And like some of them, like, we get people that apply that just don’t it would be like an accountant, just literally like, what’s QuickBooks? Yeah. You know, that sometimes being in those roles for too long. And then another thing is sometimes it’s obviously this isn’t a secret or, or tricks of the trade. There are some people that you’re like, why have you had 12 different jobs? Because that says your I don’t know. I don’t that’s that’s a huge red flag, and it probably any

Casey Wright 14:06
Sherman? Well, it’s funny to balance, and I’m sure we’ll dive into this more later. But the industry has changed so much. I’ve seen so many cycles and 16 years, I know there are people that have been doing it a lot longer than I have. But from what when I first started, you know, what is desirable. And what people wanted to avoid has changed a lot. I mean, that’s a perfect example. In my dad’s generation, people went to a job and whether they went to college or not, they thought they were going to be there for their whole career. 40 years, whatever it is. And when I first got in the business, there was still more of that mindset. And we want someone that’s been there, at least eight years or you know, 10 years, 20 years, whatever it is, and that’s shifted a lot. Now they don’t want people that are job hoppy. Everybody gets at least one hall pass. You have one short stint. Everyone’s had a jerk of a boss everyone’s you know, fallen into a bad situation. Most people look past that. Now. I remember early on I would get a lot of push back on that, well, this person was only at this job for nine months. What’s the story is like, last job for 15 years like are you discrediting that, and now it’s finding a balance, if someone’s 10 years of their career, and they have worked for three different places, that’s pretty good. That’s given them a variety of experience. They’re not just jumping. The second though the wind blows the other other direction. They can stay there, but they’ve also gotten this background, you know, whether it’s different software, different culture, whatever. So that’s definitely changed a lot.

Matt DeCoursey 15:28
I mean, human level, I try not to fault someone for wanting to do better for them for sure. Like you mentioned, like, Hey, there’s this history of stability or whatever. And, you know what, shit happens, man get like, as ever know, what’s going to, you know, companies change, and especially with this last couple years, you know, it can it can It’s a wild ride. And, you know, I think one thing that that and I mentioned this earlier, is it being passionate. So I find the so many recruits that we end up hiring, feel like they’re stagnant. They’re not growing, they’re not learning how to use new technology, they’re just kind of bored. They’re tired of like being like the maintenance guy, basically. So that happens a lot in tech. And then a lot of times they have a desire to branch out and do just other iterations of stuff. And, you know, now Full Scale, because we work with a ton of different clients, we offer that ability to possibly go a bunch of different ways. Sure, if they’re working for Globo Corp, or whomever you know, it’s not a real company. Now, they are probably following me on Twitter. You know, with that, like that, that there’s a rigid thing. It’s like, hey, no, you, we need you to do this job. And you talked about how recruiting works, too. And business intelligence, I can tell you exactly how long and how all of my hiring competitors take to respond to a job offer, if they’re likely to match it, all of it, and how and how they’re going to be on the way out. And, and that’s been a key thing for me is understanding that and knowing that, and, you know, like I said, it’s the bigger the company I’m recruiting someone out of now, you know, I think we’d probably be remiss if we didn’t mention that you talked about how recruiting works. I am personally of the belief that the very best people to hire are already employed somewhere else. They’re not out like knocking on doors with an application in their hand. Oh, absolutely. You know, that’s a bit of a red flag. If that’s the case, and you know, honestly, if you’re a software developer, that’s unemployed, I want to know why. Because for real, why yet, like there’s, it’s your choice, or there’s something wrong with your approach to all of it?

Casey Wright 17:44
Absolutely. It made me think of a few years ago, I had a client that was looking to hire for a controller level. And there was a guy that the background matched up really well, really well, as far as the skill sets. But he’d been in three jobs in three years. And I remember he’s like, what’s the story? And I said, there’s good explanations. And I was like, Well, you know, this first one, the company was acquired, and they moved everything to corporate and he couldn’t relocate. And the second one, you know, the owner made a bad investment and went out of business. And third one, whatever, yada, yada, yada. And the guy responds, he’s like, that may all be true. But I’m not trying to sell my company and I don’t want it to go out of business. Sounds like this guy’s bad luck. So I just don’t want to hear anyways, like, fair enough.

Matt DeCoursey 18:32
Yeah, there’s Now on the flip side, all that anybody that you’re talking to, or recruiting, that’s, that’s taking a dump on everybody or anything, like they’re gonna do the same thing to you? Absolutely not. That is not a good thing that I do not go for it. Because you talk about culture. You know, I mean, there are only like, 10 million different ways to show you that negativity is a drag in any way, shape, and form and nobody wants to bring that person. And, you know, one of the things for us is, this is pretty interesting, because it’s a challenge to assess on some levels. But for software developers, you’re a problem solver. And that often means that you are like our clients are innovating things that there isn’t an owner’s manual or a Google search to tell you how to build machine learning for something and you got to figure it out. And really in the end, if you’re trying to recruit people find people that are really smart. Yep. Because smart people figure it out. Absolutely. And and you know, and then a you know, with that, you know, people that are positive and like have a can-do attitude and I like people that are really like, obsessive in some regards, because like I don’t go to sleep until I found that solution. Yep. Because that’s what you’re supposed to be doing. So, I want to talk a little bit more about some, some things to look for and some also some ways that you might be able to fire up a few recruits and reach out now, as a reminder with me today, I’ve got Casey right. And Casey is the President of Chief of Staff and KC, that’s my hometown. Now, we’ve had listeners 181 countries last year. So some of them don’t know the St. Louis reference. Or maybe we’re Kansas City, you got a There’s a link in the show notes, as well as a link to gussto. Now, Casey Gusto. really sped it up. Unlike us, they specialize in managing your team and making it as easy as 123. No more late nights for processing payroll, or dealing with business tax filings, no more painful spreadsheets for attendance, tracking, say hello to your new smart HR platform, check out forward slash Startup Hustle, get a three month subscription now, just go to forward slash Startup Hustle realizing you sell financial services and employees is that competitive?

Casey Wright 20:59
I’m not worried about it.

Matt DeCoursey 20:59
Yeah, I think now, I have a lot of appreciation for anything that makes all those things share that are now part of like the whole process, whether you’re you’re dealing with volume, or you’re, you know, you hear the term ATS Applicant Tracking Systems, which are good in some cases, and also overly general and others, we had to build our own, to handle the volume and basically turn to an applicant, we’ve got all these assessment notes, all these different things, we did literally build a very complex solution. And with that, the output is a very clever online profile that has everything from videos and then speaking because, by the way, I got tired of answering the question, Do they speak English? Click the video on the C file and listen to this person talk and tell me if you think that’s someone that you could communicate with. You know, and also, one thing that’s, that’s a key ingredient to us is like we actually have animated gifs that we have, that are different for every employee, because these are people Yeah, these are people, you got to remember that when you’re recruiting like, they’re not cogs, they’re not gears, you need to appreciate what they’ve done. And, and I think really, in the end when it comes to recruiting, and I’ve literally hired like you hundreds of people at this point is, you know, talk about why people leave a gig. Sure, they feel under appreciated, they feel underpaid, and they feel like they’re not listened to. Absolutely. I mean, what else there’s the, by the way, hold my beer if you want the full list, but what are some of the things that you think drive people out of places that actually make them a decent recruitment target?

Casey Wright 22:40
Well, I think like I was talking about earlier with the industry changing, I think everyone has to be adaptable. I think if you’re stuck in the way that things were done in the past, in the past sometimes means 100 years ago, the past sometimes means two years ago, with how much the world is changing. Right now, the past is a lot more recent than in the past. Pun intended. But you have to be adaptable. Like there’s clients of mine, I’ll give you an example. A year ago, if somebody called me in, or I call them about a job, and they’re well, what’s the work situation? Where is it? What’s the arrangement? Well, every one of them, or almost every one of them was looking for 100% from home or maybe a year and a half ago somewhere, you know, within this pandemic, almost every single one of them 100% from home. Well, about seven, eight months ago, I got I got a call back from a candidate every shots about a job. And she’s like, what’s the work situation? I say good news. It’s 100% from home, she’s like, Damn, I’m not interested. I’m like, What? What do you mean, she’s like, I’m so sick and tired of working from home, I just want to get back to the office and have human interaction. And so now I’m coaching my clients on you’ve got to be flexible, offer some flexibility, say they can work from home so they can work in the office. I know that’s not a viable option for everybody. But my first 14 years in the business that wasn’t even anything that was brought up, that wasn’t a conversation like never. And so now, if companies aren’t looking at ways to get ahead of things, they’re already behind. And I see that a lot.

Matt DeCoursey 24:06
Prior to the pandemic, I’m going to be wrong on this number. So I’m just gonna shoot from the hip, which is really common for me. I may quote Abraham Lincoln’s Twitter page. You never you never know, stick around. But you know, there I had a recent conversation on the show. And once again, I do too many of these shows. So I also don’t know which one that is. This is why we have a production team here. So you know, and we won’t edit this out. So like prior to the pandemic, something like one in 65 jobs were actually work from home and now it’s like one in seven or eight or something. Yeah, I believe that and you talk about the changing tides now. You know, I find it interesting because I’ve worked from home for a couple of decades at this point. And I’m I get it done, but I think that most people are that are never going to be a cook except to actually work from home in a productive way, like a lot of people need the structure. And, you know, I’m interested to see how that continues to work out. I also think that some jobs are inherently better to do at home and software development is actually one of them. Because it’s, it’s a little easier to focus without distractions. And the flip side, though, the thing that we’re struggling with and Trump wants that we’re struggling with parent for is how do we continue to grow our younger employees that are now no longer sitting a seat or two down from the guy or gal with 15 years experience? And, you know, much like, Well, if you’ve ever been around a carpenter, like, there’s always every crew has an old carpenter in their life. So my buddy, Eric Perkins, who was on Startup Hustle TV, they have a guy, they call him the wizard. And he is like, the He knows every trick, every whatever. And you know, like these, there’s a lot to be said about that personal interaction. Some jobs are terribly at home, like, I don’t know how an HR sure director could work at home, like, where do you keep? Where are your files? Where any of that? Like, are you interviewing people in your living room? Or like some of that is? I don’t know. How do you feel about like, what, what jobs are, are meant to be accomplished or easier to accomplish while at home and water? like,

Casey Wright 26:19
Hmm, well, some obvious ones. I mean, you mentioned construction that can’t be done from from, you know, most manufacturing cannot be done from home. A lot miss the individual personality. I joke around a lot of our industry on the surface is pretty simple. You know, we go find people jobs, and they hire from us. And that’s that. But the truth is, every single day is different. I have not had one single day in my career that I would say is the same as any others. And you can’t, there’s no guidebook for that. It’s on the job. It’s real training. It’s, you know, it’s the guys and gals in my office that hear me on the phone, and I’m responding to whatever it is the person on the other end of the line is saying, I have no idea. I mean, we talked about earlier, being therapists, a lot of our job is dealing with this. I mean, we’ve I’ve had people that are battling, you know, sicknesses I’ve had people I work with who have passed away or have had close family members that have passed away or or, you know, divorces, there’s all sorts of different stuff, which, at the end of the day, we’re dealing with people, you know, we’re in the business of dealing with people, and you need to have experiences that aren’t normal to understand how to deal with that. And without sitting in the same building as somebody that’s really hard to duplicate. You know, you can’t there’s not a training manual for that kind of stuff.

Matt DeCoursey 27:46
Yeah, so I have 20,000 square feet of office space that has largely been empty for two years. And I’ve got a good year and a half left on that $40,000 A month expense. But, you know, with that we have several employees actually have, you know, we have in that system, I mentioned as building, we’ve got a feedback system, which is fully anonymous, and I want it to be that some people are literally like, you know, have said, Hey, I really want to come back to the office. I’m tired. I’m seeing more of that. Yep. In general, even with people I know. Like, we just hired a new director of business development. And he was just asked me, he’s like, hey, I’ll do whatever I need to do to be successful, but like, how do you guys do and work and we come to it. We’re the new Full Scale and Startup Hustle studio in downtown Kansas City, Kansas, which by the way, is not close to where anyone lives. And it’s also it’s also the wrong side of the state line. The Kansas City you’re familiar with, is actually in Missouri, which blows people’s minds. Yes, the Kansas City Chiefs are in Missouri. So we’re the Kansas City Royals. But you know, like he said to me, he’s like, Dude, I you know, I love my family. But I think they would like to see me get out of the house. And I would like to maybe get out too. And it’s kind of nice to come down a couple of days a week, because honestly, like I same thing, like my wife is probably happy.

Casey Wright 29:06
Yes. But so my mine as well, I’ve joked around a lot about this. So a couple of months shy of my 40th birthday. And about half of my team is, you know, around my age, give or take a couple of years and about half the team is mid 20s. Well, those of us that are a little older, a little more well established. We’ve got you know, we own houses big enough to have a separate space for an office and the house, etc. The younger ones are mostly, you know, smaller apartments or whatever. But none of them have kids or most don’t have pets. They might have a roommate or significant other, and they’re working at their kitchen counter. Well, we may have bigger places, but most of us have young kids and dogs and whatever. It’s like I don’t know what which is easier. It’s a challenge no matter what.

Matt DeCoursey 29:53
when that’s the case in the Philippines because you know, the cities are densely populated. A lot of people have been They’re just Well, first off, it’s 72 to 92 degrees every day of the year. So you go outside a little more, unlike Kansas City where it was just like three degrees for like 300 days in a row. Yeah, it really feels terrible. But yeah, you have a really good point, I think the situational analysis of where you’re working, should I have a room that I go lock myself in that it’s distraction-free now, Jessica, who’s our show producer, you know, her husband goes to work every day. And that’s sometimes a struggle Sure. With kids, especially because they want mom Yep, my kids are like, want mom. And that makes it easier for me to actually do some stuff. And, and my wife’s job has been, so mine mine as well, a lot of support there. And that can be different now, when you talk about getting people and I think if you want to if you’re recruiting for people, and they want to predominantly work from home, my suggestion is that you find people that seem like they can be consistent. And have they need to be motivated on some levels. Because you know, that I think that’s the hardest part of the work from home thing is, if you think about your strongest distractions are at home.

Casey Wright 31:15

Matt DeCoursey 31:16
It’s easiest to not do what you should be doing, you’re at home.

Casey Wright 31:20
So, you have to be pretty self disciplined in order to really grind it out at home, the definition

Matt DeCoursey 31:25
of self discipline is doing the things that you need to do at the times that you least want to do that for sure. That for most people who are considering that I don’t know what the stats are now, but at one point, you know, you’d see these surveys 73% of America hates their job. I’m like, I’m sure they’re just popping out of bed, working from home, they’re like, You know what, I’m gonna kill it. Or like now, man, those are the folks that were smart and created the Zoom background that it was really just a recording. Maybe there really is a lot a lot of I think that I don’t know, it’s been it’s been very interesting. And, you know, I think it’s changed the dynamic now for us. I mentioned that the pandemic does a favor, even though I got a shitload office space that I pay for the same thing. Well, yeah, but I’m okay with that. Because it forced us to go remote. And then with tech, the industry-standard became remote. We were inherently already a remote company. Because unless you’re in the Philippines and hiring us what you’re not sure. We were remote anyway. Now, you know, the so a lot of our competitors are forcing people back to the office, and I love it, please, all of the people that I hire your employees, especially your great ones, keep forcing them back to the office because they’re lining up like we and we lead the charge with that very aggressively with work from home. Oh, my God, never seen a bigger influx of absolutely, like, I had to turn my ads off saying after three days, because I overwhelmed our system. I’m like, Oh, wow. Like, and you know, so with that we also are our greatest recruiting recruitment tool as our own employees.

Casey Wright 33:08
Yeah, we, we’ve talked a lot about this, most of our competitors in town have had someone has reached out to us. And since the beginning of the pandemic, many of our competitors, we’re pushing for their people to get back in the office before they are comfortable with it. I think it’s more efficient, effective to be in an office. Yeah, but not to the not to the point where it’s worth, you know, pissing off your employees or worse, risking, you know, the spread of a disease or whatnot. And so we’ve been flexible with people since the beginning of it. And I think it’s pretty evident. And that’s why I haven’t lost a single recruiter in over three years now, which that doesn’t happen in our industry.

Matt DeCoursey 33:45
Well, that’s also the flexibility and the versatility and the adaptability. This is agile, and that’s how modern businesses need to be. And you know, here’s the thing as the market dictates what the market does, yeah. Us the other way around. So you know, if that’s the trend is the trend. If you’re going to try to swim upstream, you shouldn’t be complaining about the downhill resistance. Good luck of the stream. Yeah. You know, so I mean, there’s a lot to be said there. Now. I’m not going to blow everyone’s mind here because I’m going to talk a little bit about ways here we are giving away secrets about how you can you can find and recruit people as we are headhunters and staffing and staff augmentation firms. But you know what, like, hey, most of you probably aren’t going to use this as a, as a as a as a as a referral partner or business partner anyway. And you know, we’re here to just kind of tell the real story of entrepreneurship and help people get better. Number one way that I’ve recruited people is just simply asking them, find them, they look good and I sent them a message, tell them how they can apply and see if they do sir. I hate to dumb it down and make it sound that simple, but I mean that that works.

Casey Wright 35:01
LinkedIn is a very effective tool, no question about it.

Matt DeCoursey 35:03
I don’t I’m not paying, I’m not placing job ads. I’m not doing any. It’s just like, find specific people. And you know, like, I also mentioned that, so our employees, we pay our employees for successful hire. Sure. Well, I mean, it’s the equivalent to the average of like, a couple of weeks worth of pay. Because we because, you know, it’s just Well, first off, I find that our employees do not refer, they are very hesitant about who they refer, because they don’t want it to reflect on them Sure, if they line up a bunch of idiots.

Casey Wright 35:35
So I’ll tell you a quick story about that, when my first gig in this industry, the company was paying very well for internal referrals. And I was making just about as much money on referring internals, as I was placing people at our clients. The company has since changed their policies. But I, at some point, I realized that what I do what we do, I’m passionate about it. And I found it really easy to sell. So I was reaching out to all my friends, all my friends from college and high school and post-college like, you get to do this and you help people out you find them jobs, you entertain clients, that can be very lucrative, you’re making a difference in people’s lives. And so I knew a lot of people that were well connected and well liked and well respected. But they didn’t have exactly the it for the recruiting business. So I was finding tons of people jobs in and that continued on for several years. So I’ve totally changed my philosophy where I never say never, but I almost never will approach somebody and try and talk to them about getting into the recruiting business, because I’m nearly batting 1000. If I really actively do that, I think one of the biggest keys to proven whether or not somebody’s gonna be successful are businesses, they just have the innate interest. And they reach out to me to inquire about it. And if they reach out to me, and they have the right questions, let’s go, let’s talk about it. But I’ve totally stopped me like, Have you ever thought about the recruiting business because I was too good at it. I was too successful at getting people to get in our industry. And to take a step back. And I’m like, I was I was convincing people that probably weren’t right for the industry. And I didn’t know that at the time it was it was self serving, but it wasn’t maliciously self serving, I guess I would put it so now it’s a wait. And we’ve got an interview tomorrow afternoon with somebody that I know, I’ve known a long time I trust I really like never would have reached out about recruiting, but she’s expressing an interest in it. I’m like, let’s talk. I’m all for it.

Matt DeCoursey 37:33
Yeah, that there’s, well, first off, there’s a lot of people out there that are recruiter. Sure. There’s a lot of competition for that. Now really, in the end, you can have the greatest recruiters in the world. But if you’re recruiting people into a company that sucks, and a culture that sucks, you’re not gonna you’re not you’re gonna have zero wins. And that’s, you know, in so much about what we’ve tried to push at Full Scale, as you know, we’re pretty loud top a top benefits top equipment. You know, and it’s like, you wouldn’t hire a ninja and give them a butter knife and so sore. So like top equipment is like actually a big deal. Now. It’s It is literally other than rent and payroll my biggest expense but worth it. Because once again, like you know, the ninja the butter knife. So it for us to figure out what we need to do to recruit in the way we shaped our company, it was very simple. I literally had said this show a bunch, we found a bunch of people that were looking for jobs. And then we asked him what they didn’t like about the places they’d worked in the past. Sure. We listened for the echo, there was a few different things, and we just did the opposite. Yeah. And when it came to finding clients that say I’ve got a, I’ve got it more complex, because I actually have to find clients that need recurring services, you replace someone in a job, they pay for that, you know, obviously they need to stick there for a while, but we need to build that that relationship and maintain it. And you know, that that’s is while in the problem is is is if one side of that slows or isn’t going well. It has a profound effect on the other side, like meaning like I can have all the clients in the world, but if we suck at recruiting, there are service providers to put in their roles, and our clients are wanting to build teams and like perpetuity so you know, it’s painful. And you know, I a couple times along the way, I’ve had to tap the breaks. I had a waiting list for a month and a half people like that’s a good problem to have. I’m like who are you? And no, it’s not because you start to realize how expensive that is for your business not to have the right people available.

Casey Wright 39:43
So well. I’ve always said this is one of the hardest sales jobs in the world because there aren’t too many others. I’m sure somebody will call me out, but I can’t think off the top of my head where you have to sell both sides of it. You have to very very rarely do I not have either a candidate or a client It is extremely interested in the other side.

Matt DeCoursey 40:02
Now, it’s not only that I have to pay them as a full time employer, if they aren’t assigned to a client, which, in March of 2020, from March to May I lost 35% of my contracts because it when the pandemic hit just that, well, pretty much what you’re taught in most schools of business is make your cuts, figure out later if you’re right or wrong. And you know, so what now with that we rebounded super quick from that. But yeah, it was it was it was it was a mess. And you know, for us, it’d been a pretty young company like it mean, the thing is the most challenging for us is because our team works for over 40 different clients on a full time basis. That’s 40 Different influxes of culture. And clients and the way they do it and everything from we have some clients that just that literally, they have built a trust with us. They’re like, Who do you got? Tell me who is coming to work for us. Now we love them.

Casey Wright 41:03
Those are my best clients.

Matt DeCoursey 41:04
And by the way, we take that really seriously, because the first time we messed that up is the last time you get to do that without going back a long way. We’ve tried to do so much, especially with over 200 people, like we’ve had to automate so much of it. And unfortunately, we on, and online appointment scheduling, so we’ve put that in there. And who knows, man who knows I’ve, it’s a it’s it’s been a real challenge on Sundays. And you know, and without that ebb and flow, another thing in the Philippines is here, here in the US, we’ll give you two weeks notice and they’re out chair there, it’s 30 to 60 days, and it’s usually a contract that dictates that if you’re going to hand over a tech platform, usually two weeks is not enough to find the right person to fill the role. And it’s, there’s a lot of stuff that goes with that. Now, as far as in, you know, we’ll kind of before we, before we end the episode. What do you think the, in your experience, what are the some of the key motivators for like someone wanting to take a job, we talked about leaving one, but you know, that money is an obvious one, let’s cross them off. It’s not always the key driver.

Casey Wright 42:18
I mean, ironically, I’ve had many people throughout my career that when they hear what it pays, it scares them away. Because they’re like, oh, I don’t want that level of responsibility or accountability. And they, they devalue themselves. You know, I deal primarily with accountants, I’m not as self-confident a lot of times as a salesperson or whatnot. And so, it’s funny, you mentioned the money. Yes, of course, most people want more money, but sometimes it’s a deterrent to a certain degree. Um, again, it’s it changes, it’s different for every single person, you know, like, I’ve placed a ton of people coming out of public accounting throughout my career, that’s, that’s high demand. Most people are like, let’s talk from like, alright, well, what do you want to do next? And that’s what they ask most recruiters or, you know, what kind of clients do you focus on, you know, what kind of company you want to work for? Do you want to work for a large company, a small company, a public company, private company, etc? And I always ask them, like, why do you want to leave? And most people are like, well, they assume that, oh, it’s because of really long hours. I’m like, Oh, they’re busy. Season hours are long, but there’s plenty of accountants that have really long hours that aren’t in public accounting, your accountants work after April 15? No, no, that’s it. It’s January, April 15.

Matt DeCoursey 43:34
And I’ve been telling my accountant, and she gets really upset. I don’t seem to understand that.

Casey Wright 43:40
And most people think that auditors can do tax and tax folks can do fine. For now. It’s all different. It’s all different. But you know, there’s, there’s different factors for every single person, you know, somebody’s Public Accountants want to leave because they don’t like to travel, some want to leave, because they feel like they’re a cog in a wheel and a huge system is some someone want to leave be, because they’re tired of having a bunch of different clients, and they want to make an impact internally. But the answer to that question, gives me so much more information about what’s going to be the right fit for them, versus, hey, what kind of job are you looking for, because the truth is, most people are not very good at knowing really what they want and their self awareness. So I always try and get people to start having conversations and that’s easier to do now because first round interview is frequently a, you know, a brief phone call or a Zoom call, it’s less of a time commitment than in the past where it’s, you go home and you put on a suit and tie or if you’re a guy or whatever, you’re just business professional, and they put you through a three or four hour gauntlet and you have to come out have come up with an excuse to get out of work. Now let’s go have a conversation. And if I have one of my candidates that has three or four preliminary interviews, the feedback from that almost always is different than what they told me they think they want originally and in they just they have these preconceived notions for whatever reason am I interested that industry because you know, I don’t With an industry that I come to find out, it’s like they had a friend three years ago that worked in the industry and hated the company they work for. It’s like, well, yeah, that company is crap, not the industry or you know, there’s just a lot of different factors. So get out there and start having conversations, and you’re gonna be more aware of what you want to. But same with the flip side, the clients, they told me, Well, I need, you know, this software, this many years of experience, yada, yada, yada. Almost every single time from the start of the search to the end of it. It pivots multiple times. Well, this guy, this woman matches up exactly with what you told me. Oh, yeah, they’re overqualified. That’s not what you told, you know. And so it’s like, let’s just get up and have conversations because we learned so much more than what’s on paper. And I always joke around, I’m like, I placed people not paper, I spend less and less time looking at job descriptions and looking at resumes, and more time getting to know the people I work with.

Matt DeCoursey 45:43
For years, and I’ve heard the term overqualified once. Really? Yeah, it’s like the opposite. I’m said it for I know y’all can’t be y’all. Y’all gonna, my wife gives me a hard time, she’s like, You need to learn how to say the word 10. I said that she says, I usually say tan, tan. We are in Kansas, folks. So we’re on the opposite side. First off, if you show up to your tech interview, wearing a tie or a suit, you will not get the job, people will be like, you’re not gonna fit in here. With developers we have we kind of joke and I guess I’m saying you’re smart. And so the weirder they are, the better they probably are. So like, if you have like a programmer show up like in a cave with a lightsaber, hire them on the spot. Like right there. They tell you that they need extra room for their Legos like at their desk higher than what we had. Early when we first started Full Scale, we have this. So I mentioned all these assessments. And by the way, our assessments don’t want, like we have learned that, like they have a direct correlation with the success, the speed, accuracy, and the deliverables, which is very, very, very variable tech, but we had one guy that just like, like superhuman scores across a broad a range of tests that you theoretically shouldn’t be good at all these things. So he comes in for the interview, and he shows up and he’s wearing bedroom slippers, and shorts. And like was like, you know, he was on time but and so our manager at the time said, Well, why are you wearing slippers. Uh, well, I didn’t want to be late. So so. So with that, I get the recommendation back I don’t think we should hire him. He showed up in his bedroom slippers, and I don’t give a shit what he’s not one single client we have is ever going to see his feet. Yep. And then also back to the kind of the weird thing you know, like that is like a really in that Watson’s always was the first person to really drive that home. He’s like, dude, the weirder they are the better. And, you know, the funny thing is in Tech because usually when we’re they were sitting at home messing around with their computer all day they were they were out socializing or playing football or, I mean, just the reality of it. And one thing that’s it’s a challenge, when we try to train our clients, it’s like, they’ll they’ll talk to someone they’d be like, well, they weren’t very, they weren’t very vocal and communicative. I’m like, do they speak speaks English. It’s like, Yeah, but he was really introverted. I’m like, Dude, it’s it’s software developer that comes with the territory sales guy, do you want a spokesperson or a developer? Because they’re two very, very different, different things? Oh, wait for us. The thing we find with tech is, it’s not about the money, although the money is good. It’s about the feeling of the career and the skills are moved. Yeah, so like, meaning like, because that’s something that changes and, and, you know, honestly, there are a lot of people that have a lifetime of experience in tech, and they are working with monolithic antiquated stuff that is in a state of decline to the point that maybe if they stay with it long enough, they’ll be one of the only few people that will do it. And then they’re even more valuable. There’s, there’s a lot of things that ebb and flow. We mentioned like short timeframes, like a year or two, like in the world of tech, that’s like infinity. Sure. like kind of like add up, you know, like you people are that I openly admit my ADD, if you’re like, What are you doing in six months? I’m like, Dude, come on. i People have a six day window.

Casey Wright 49:15
I don’t like to say I’m successful. But people ask me a lot. What do you attribute success to? I say, ADD all the time.

Matt DeCoursey 49:21
Oh, yeah. I wouldn’t. Well, you mentioned turning 40. So the thing that I’ve really learned to appreciate is as I’ve gotten older people, so everyone, every time I talk to you, you have so much energy, like that’s amazing, like a catalyst. I’m like, yeah.

Casey Wright 49:36
Yes, that’s how I’m wired.

Matt DeCoursey 49:37
But I said I got the H, I got the hyperactivity man. Like, it’s and by the way, it’s hard to dial that down. And that’s a whole

Casey Wright 49:45
That gets us in trouble every once in a while, but I think it we’re

Matt DeCoursey 49:47
It got me in trouble a lot until I learned how to maybe once you rein it in. It’s, it is if you can put the lightning in the bottle. The problem is, is when you can’t you’re kind of like doing the X man. That’s Like was it Cyclops? sunglasses off just like you have no chance. So my daughter has been blessed with that gift and same as mine. When I was that age, they didn’t have medication that stuff so I was just labeled with disruptive kid.

Casey Wright 50:19
Is the troublemaker because you doodled on your notebook and talked in class, right?

Matt DeCoursey 50:23
Yeah. So, well, as we, as we approach the end of a conversation that could probably go on for days. I want to, I want to let everyone know that well wait shiny things. Once again, today’s episode Startup Hustle was sponsored by Gusto. If you’re looking for an all-in-one HR platform, it’s time to check out Gusto. You have everything you need, and just a few clicks of a button, you’ll even get three free months. And you got to forward slash Startup Hustle once again, forward slash Startup Hustle, you know, it’s even easier than typing that in case is scrolling down to the show notes of this podcast, no matter where you’re listening. And they can not only find the link to forward slash Startup Hustle, because it’s a lot to type in and say it three times really fast, that can also be challenged. But there’s also a link to your company on there. And that is You know, I’d like to end my episodes. I know you’re technically not the founder, but you kind of are in many ways, you know, in my shows with founders freestyle, and I say my shows because I’m not the only host the show anymore, man we got we have Andrew, Andrew Morgans, the CEO and founder Marknology specializes in Amazon brand acceleration. Lauren Conaway, who has a personal hero of mine, InnovateHer just got their 5000 member started as a Facebook.

Casey Wright 51:42
Congrats, Lauren.

Matt DeCoursey 51:43
I know she’s awesome. And Matt Watson is going to be hosting his own shows. And those kick off in March. And we’ll see how those go. Matt, Matt. He said, man, you know, 600 episodes later, I finally get to be the bride not the bridesmaid. I was like, good luck, buddy. Good luck. I forgot it felt like I was pushing a child-like, I’m like, go just Yes, you can move on your own. You know, the founders freestyle is inherently here to talk about well, it’s a freestyle man. Do whatever you want. You said you work in rap?

Casey Wright 52:17
Or do? Wow. Yeah. It’s a little early in the day for people saying rap.

Matt DeCoursey 52:20
Talk for like 20 minutes.

Casey Wright 52:25
I can talk for hours. I don’t know if people want to hear me.

Matt DeCoursey 52:28
We’ll get Yeah. I mean, as we kind of look back, and you know, this is a real how his recruiting work. Like, we really could talk about this for 100 years, like we scratched the surface, barely, barely scratching the surface. And, you know, maybe we need to do a whole series on it. Because honestly, I think the world kind of needs, you know, but I mean, what are some of your key takeaways or things that we might not have said?

Casey Wright 52:51
Well, one thing I was thinking of earlier was you talked about, hey, we’re giving away the tips on how to hire, oh, no, we’re gonna let our special sauce or a special secret out.

Matt DeCoursey 53:01
Which I’m not worried about.

Casey Wright 53:02
Nor am I, I used to be a lot more earlier in my career, and then I started to recognize I’m like, I can tell you exactly how I do it. But unless

Matt DeCoursey 53:10
Doesn’t mean you’re gonna do it.

Casey Wright 53:11
Doesn’t mean you’re gonna do it. And so I’m not too worried about it. It’s not proprietary. I know we do things better. I’m confident that I’m confident in saying that. But when you’re saying, Well, here’s the best way to hire, listen, because I need my hiring managers to be better at hiring. It’s not just us finding good talent, we need our clients to know how to operate too. And they need to adjust and they need to pivot. Like, one thing I was thinking of earlier was, you know, sometimes if we said what, what drives people to a company, it’s different for every single person, every single situation is different. Back to the point of why we need to be in the office and learn on the fly for real-time. We’re pushing our clients to move quickly, right now, of course, people think, oh, that’s self serving, the faster you get a deal close, you get paid, etc. It’s not that it’s because people are gonna be off the market. I mean, I’ve been taught time kills all deals. That’s, that’s one thing that is absolutely true has always been true. But sometimes you need to read the room. It’s realtors. Now, if you’re looking at a pocket listing that’s in a hot area, they’re gonna tell you not to leave the house without making an offer. And probably over would the ask is, and that’s true in our business, too. But then again, our job as recruiters is to learn our candidates and learn the style. More often than not, I’m gonna tell my clients, hey, if you really like this person, you better you better put up or shut up. But if it’s a candidate that is very, you know, timid about testing the market, you know, we’re very trepidatious and they go on their very first interview, and at the end of the interview, the hiring manager is like, Alright, we’re gonna offer you right away, you’re gonna scare him away. It’s like going on a first date and proposing right away. You need to be able to read that a little bit. We need to be able to coach our clients on that to those people, you need to give them a little bit of time. I hear clients all the time. They’re like, really like this person. We want to have a few to compare it to, like I said,

Matt DeCoursey 55:08
That’s not why you hire a company like yours or mine. No, I mean, to be honest, it’s not

Casey Wright 55:13
Like more isn’t better, more, we’ve screened out tons. I mean, I’ve said this for years, when like, I saved the best for first, like, more often than not the very first person I think of for a job.

Matt DeCoursey 55:23
I talked to the other 39 people. Exactly. And by the way, that’s a red flag for us when it comes to clients. Because, well, I mean, we don’t mind we want it to be a good fit.

Casey Wright 55:32

Matt DeCoursey 55:33
The things we do, as mentioned, were a little different, because they’re already are employed, you’re talking to them. That means they are available, but it’s highly competitive. Because I mean, you don’t hold people for, you know, unless you’re like, Hey, I’m just waiting for a contract or prove okay, you have 48 hours.

Casey Wright 55:49
Oh, absolutely.

Matt DeCoursey 55:50
You know, our clients see people disappear from our system. Like, I get emails a lot. They’re like, so this guy was in there the other day, and now it’s gone like, Well, it’s because you scheduled your interview 16 days from now. I mean, there’s Yeah, I had a waiting list two months ago, this guy, this guy or gal, is it just gonna stay there? And I like that. Yeah. Because it makes people move quick.

Casey Wright 56:12
Absolutely, it opens their eyes.

Matt DeCoursey 56:14
What are you waiting for, and in, you know, as part of this whole thing, and it’s like something I don’t want to do head on, or all that money you’re not paying for the higher you’re paying for all of the effort that you saved yourself and going through? Which by the way, if you haven’t done it, good luck. Yeah, good. Frickin luck. Because there, dude, my day is is in week is just loaded with calls. So first off, this is what I get. This is my takeaway here. So first off, I’m very upfront about the fact that we’re probably more expensive than the competition because I don’t have the same thing. You can’t be like, it’s not an apple or an apple. They’re like, hey, this developer for this other company. Now it’s funny because in in my world, somehow everybody magically has the top 3%, I really do.

Casey Wright 56:59

Matt DeCoursey 57:03
I can prove it. I can show you that. Now. You know, with that, there’s, you know, there’s there’s a lot to be said about that. We’ll all prevent people from hiring, putting people on their team, if I don’t think it’s a good fit for our team members. Because that never goes well. The replacement of people’s really expensive and, you know, like now when it grew part of what I hear all the time, is people a kid, but a job ad up and I got three applicants. Yeah, that’s pretty normal, man. Yeah, that’s about what you’re gonna get. Now, you said, I want to talk to a bunch of people. Okay, cool. So in three months, you’re gonna have nine candidates, maybe and you probably have spent a bunch of money. So

Casey Wright 57:41
and time and time is money, and what do we make an hour’s worth all these interviews, so

Matt DeCoursey 57:45
you can you can go to LinkedIn and put your ad out for free. And the thing is, no one’s gonna see it unless you probably spend a couple grand promoting it. And that’s the way it is. Now. We’re also in a in a labor market that is really weirdly tilted. So you know, you see these articles are like, there are more unemployed people than jobs available. Why is that exist? Well, it’s because 350,000 of them are tech jobs that we can’t fill, and never will, because their data is an overwhelming number. And we, I mean, the state of Kansas a few years ago have 300 and change computer science grads. Like good Luck, you know, like there’s I can name 10 different companies in in the 28th biggest market in Kansas City. Yep, that are going to hire more people now this year. Yep. And you know, so really what you’re paying for with a company like Casey’s are ours, is the ease of use, because look and as a business owner, or a founder and entrepreneur or an employee, anything you’re doing that is pulling you away from growing the business has an opportunity cost and as the growth of the business. So, you know, I have, as you mentioned, the 40, I’m coming up with 47 don’t look a day over 46.

Casey Wright 58:56
I would agree with that.

Matt DeCoursey 58:57
39. But I’ve really learned to appreciate the specialty nature of a lot of different businesses, a lot of software platforms. And I always I always tell people that and get you know, people ask you a question about this. What do we need to do with my startup, we need to get good at really, I get really good at one thing, or you try to get good at six. But you know, whether it’s a recruitment firm, or a company like Full Scale or something completely different. We’re in this golden age of entrepreneurship, where people are specialized in a lot of different stuff. You guys are really great with financial books. And you and I know you live two doors down for my dad, which was interesting, because we didn’t know that was your first talk that we’ve had a couple of calls and you know, you’ve told me you’re like, Dude, I let you sell is like paper or magic or something way different. And I feel the same way. Like, I don’t know how I would probably struggle to understand like an accountant. I feel like I’d be I spend most my time trying to get him to talk.

Casey Wright 1:00:03
Everyone says that Yeah, well, I love it though most people I interview the accountants and like I said, accounting and finance, what I’ve always specialized in, but we have several divisions. Almost every account I’ve interviewed said, you know, I’m not like your typical accountant, personality-wise, I’m like, Well, if you all say that, eventually, it becomes not true. But one difference you’re talking about in saving money, and how, like I said, we do temporary temp to hire direct hire, direct hire placements is what I personally have predominantly focused on throughout my career. I tell people all the time I offer a free service in the vast majority of what I do is pro bono work. And that’s advising clients and candidates. And it doesn’t cost people anything to look at a resume. Right? And I’m like, you can keep using your internal recruiter, you can keep doing whatever. But you’re calling me for a reason. You know, it’s been three weeks or three months

Matt DeCoursey 1:00:51
They are trying to avoid the overwhelming expanse of getting it wrong. Yeah. You know, like hiring the wrong people at your best. This is awesome forges tear of all it’s, it’s deflating your existing staff. It’s distracting. So takes you away from your core mission. You’re paying someone to suck at what you hire them to do, which is the often especially with high level people do most expensive. Yep. And you know, and then you could start over. And, you know, that’s just really par for the course. So you know, I fortunately, in the world of tech, a lot of companies we deal with are venture-backed, and they get a lot of good advice. So it’s just like, they’re like, Hey, I’m trying to, I’m trying to go straight to the source, or you’re not Frank Lucas and American Gangster trying to go you’re not gonna get the best people in a foreign country. Like, when you don’t have a business there is actually stable and recognizable and able to provide the things that no one would take a job here without like, healthcare and retirement, like, you’re not gonna go do that in a foreign country. And another thing too, is like, Here, people lean on a lot of like, online freelancer marketplaces. Good luck protecting your IP. Yeah. What are you gonna do when that person runs off with your code, and you find it on BitBucket later, or they blackmail you for it and that actually happened to me once. And that’s when I realized I needed to create a better solution for like, what we do Full Scale.

Casey Wright 1:02:16

Matt DeCoursey 1:02:16
And it’s like, and you know, that’s the thing I have recourse, ladies are vetted people. You know, be careful with who you’re hiring and what they’re doing and know that, you know, that’s where that trusted source comes in. Do just like, just like you, we are selling trust, yep, we are selling trust, and we are selling experience. And here’s the thing, man, at this point, we have had 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people not only taking our assessments, but also applying. Sure, and we got pretty darn good at it. Yeah, like we are laser sharp at it. Like I mean, I literally can’t remember the last person that I would classify as a bad hire that still works or company. It’s a good thing we had a couple early and you know what that’s going to happen now. How would that affect your business is what you need to ask yourself. So really, the smartest people I know that have the most experience building Whopper businesses are going to tell you to call a company like yours or a company like ours or, or be committed to the path of getting really good at doing it internally, which is a long process and tech, you don’t have that time. It’s like the fail fast mentality get big now or go home.

Casey Wright 1:03:24
It’s just not feasible to be specialized in many different areas. And I was talking to a client the other day, who’s based in the San Francisco area, and they were trying to recruit on their own. And she said, I’ve been with this company for years and very successfully have recruited and, you know, we’re now trying to hire some people based in Kansas City. She goes, I can’t get them to respond to me for the life of me. And I’m like, Okay, well, why? She was I don’t I don’t know. So you don’t know our market. I said, you may be really good in San Francisco, but you don’t know Kansas City. And she gave me a couple of examples of people that she was recruiting. And she’s like, and I they are people I knew because I know the people my industry well, and she said, why aren’t they responding to me? I said, well, they live in XYZ suburb. What’s wrong with that? I said, that’s 45 minutes from your office. She’s like, and I said, people don’t wanna drive 45 minutes in Kansas City. She goes, Oh, you gotta be kidding me. If it’s less than 90 minutes, and the Bay Area that’s considered next door is like, there’s no way you can know that, you know, little idiosyncrasies about it, and not just market to market but you may be great at recruiting sales professionals, but if you don’t know the accounting market, you don’t know how to recruit them. And that’s that’s why we have our disciplines and we stay within our disciplines to we have partners that we team up with for other areas, but I’m not gonna go out there and and find you an IT guy because as we’ve established, I’m not the tech guy. I don’t know that world. I’ve got friends who do.

Matt DeCoursey 1:04:46 But BI, Business Intelligence, and that’s that’s reflective of not That’s partly reflects on your market, but also who you’re competing in. And yeah, you know, I don’t know there’s a lot of people who just they’re like, hey man, I’m cool where I’m at, and they’re gonna stick there and you can’t expect them to you know what, whenever we hear that are like, great. We’re here. We’ll be here whatever. You know what those people come back a lot. I’ll come back a lot because some because things change.

Casey Wright 1:05:15

Matt DeCoursey 1:05:16
And speaking of changing let’s go do something different and it’s up so

Casey Wright 1:05:20
What are we gonna do?

Matt DeCoursey 1:05:21
We’re gonna figure that out but we’re not going to record.

Casey Wright 1:05:27
It sounds good.