Ep. #1105 - Land Clients Without Breaking Your Bank

Andrew Morgans 00:00
Hey, what’s up, Hustlers? Welcome back. This is Andrew Morgans, host of today’s episode of Startup Hustle, founder of Marknology. Here to cover all things, startups, e-comm, Amazon, and the marketplaces, you name it. Today, we’re going to be talking about how to land clients without breaking the bank. Today’s episode of Startup Hustle is powered by FullScale.io. Hiring software developers is difficult. Full Scale can help you build a software team quickly and affordably and has the platform to help you manage that team. Visit FullScale.io to learn more. Today’s guest is actually in Vietnam, coming up at midnight there. So I’m super thankful that he’s stayed up late to be with us here on Startup Hustle. AJ Cassata from Revenue Boost, welcome to the show.

AJ Cassata 00:43
Thanks for having me. I’m really excited about today’s chat.

Andrew Morgans 00:46
Yeah, I have always wanted to go to Vietnam. So I’m a little envious today. Especially because you were probably there during the pandemic. I think you said you’ve been there for the last four years. And I can imagine being, at least, the environment I picture in my mind for Vietnam. I lived in Hawaii and Africa for a long time. And just thinking about that environment during that time sounds like I’m envious.

AJ Cassata 01:08
Yeah, it wasn’t a bad place to be stuck out during the pandemic.

Andrew Morgans 01:11
Yeah, so calling in from Vietnam, you and your wife run an agency called Revenue Boost, or I’ve considered an agency. Maybe it’s a professional coaching program. Before we jump into exactly everything, that is because I want to discover, kind of, how you’re working with agencies or business owners. Today, we’ll get into some of the nitty-gritty details about how to really grow your business without a lot of marketing spin. Let’s talk about AJ a little bit. You actually were talking before the show. You’re originally from New York, and now you’re in Vietnam, so there’s definitely some story in between there. Did you always know you were going to be working as an agency owner, to be a business owner or an entrepreneur? When did you first get the bug?

AJ Cassata 01:56
Yeah, it was kind of had an inkling I would run a business, and my dad also ran a business. He actually dropped out of college as well to start a tech company. We sold it like in like the pre-internet days when there was like that was cool growing up, but I didn’t really know exactly what our main business was. I kind of fell into it. When I went to college, I went to school as an undeclared major. And, like a lot of people, just kind of got shoved into the assembly line of school, right without knowing what the plan was. And it started because someone came into my classroom, a recruiter, and he was like, Hey, do you want to work in sales? And I was like, sales that could be good for me. You know, I enjoy socializing. I love talking to people, and I ended up being like a door-to-door sales job for a house painting company. Right. So I was going to sell construction services. And, you know, it was a really hard thing. I think it was a great way to first get my break into the business. And I kind of realized that then I had a knack for business. And suddenly, things happened. I ended up being the top sales rep in New York State that year. And that was a freshman in school. I made way more money doing that. And I was delivering pizzas months ago before that. Okay, this is cool. There might be something here. I ended up actually just pursuing an opportunity full-time because the company really liked me. So they gave me a full-time role. It’s even like hiring a manager for a sales team. And yeah, long story short, I dropped out of school when I was 19. And just decided to embrace it full-time. Because by that point, I knew I didn’t want to run some kind of business. I didn’t know what it would be. I didn’t know it’d be digital marketing. And I realized, like, Okay, I was getting so much we’re actually just doing this in real life, right by actually going out and talking to people, closing deals, negotiating all that, rather than just what I was learning in school, right. So that was where I initially got the book.

Andrew Morgans 03:27
Okay, so you got the bug, you’re working in sales, I think that’s a great spot for anyone that’s learning, or that wants to build a business or start a business is like, whatever you’re going to build, you need to learn how to sell it. And you need to learn how to get a rejection and turn those into yeses and learn to work with other people. And a lot of times you’ll hear that a lot of business owners start in sales, like whether that’s mowing lawns, or, you know, whatever the case is, and you learned it early 19 just kinds of being like, look, this is what I’m going to need to do, to get where I want to be why to go into school and learn this. For me, it’s a little bit different because I was, I didn’t have any family members. I’ve been through college, and I was definitely out on my own trying to figure things out. And so I was like this, I want to be the first to get a college degree kind of thing. And slow down, slow down to get that. In hindsight, I don’t regret it at all because it was like, just pushing myself for further education. But at the same time, man, if I could have gotten those, for me, it would have been five or six years to get my degree if I could get those years back. How much further would I be in business? But you know, each one, everybody has their own path. So let’s talk about whether you’re selling outdoor, you’re selling paint, or outdoor construction services. You’re building a sales team, and 19 years old. What happens after that?

AJ Cassata 04:46
Yeah, so I’ve been working and growing into the company for about five years or so till I was 23. And I learned a lot like I knew I didn’t want to be working for someone forever, but I just took the opportunity to just learn and, you know, again, gave everyone with experience and kind of a safe environment. I think there’s that if you want to be an entrepreneur and you’re younger, I think there’s nothing wrong with getting a job for a bit, especially a sales or marketing job. And just being able to learn those skills gives you that head starts before you go out and do it on your own and take all the risks, right? So I just said, to really refine those skills. And after five years, I got a little bit burned out. I also felt like it wasn’t just growing that much more because it started to be like just the same thing over and over again. And at that point, I kind of discovered digital marketing because our company, like so the company that I worked for, calendar expanding, they were a $40 million company, but they didn’t know online marketing. It was all offline, all door-to-door, traditional flyers, trade shows, all that. And I started just playing around with Facebook ads to see if I could generate leads, but I didn’t have to go with like 20 people knocking on 1000s of doors, right? Because it was especially brutal in winter, right? So out of desperation, I decided to play around with online marketing. I learned that it works. I remember I launched my first Facebook campaign. I asked my boss for a $2 budget or something. And I got a couple of leads. And I was like, Oh my God, this actually works. There’s actually a way I can do this behind my computer.

Andrew Morgans 06:00
Yeah, what year was this?

AJ Cassata 06:03
That was like 20, 2017. So still, like, digital marketing was pretty popular. But it was just, it was a company that has been around for like 3040 years. So I tried to convince him, like, Hey, guys, we should shift over this. But you know, other companies build their business $34 million from just doing the same thing. They’re not always sure that R&d is not part of their plan.

Andrew Morgans 06:22
Yeah, they’re like, hey, that’s a good idea. This is cool.

AJ Cassata 06:24
But, like, what we’re doing works so. So they weren’t open to it. But I really, at that point, like geeked out over digital marketing. That was like a lightbulb moment, right. And just played around with it and really enjoyed it. And because I was kind of working in marketing, I had some friends that were starting businesses and were asking me for help. And I kind of realized, like, I need to start a business helping people with their marketing, right, because I’ve done this at this company. So that was where I ended up starting my first agency.

Andrew Morgans 06:50
Okay, so you were selling for the company you had been with for five years. And then, like I started consulting on the side, I would say that what you’re getting out for, like other businesses, I did something very similar. I was an e-commerce manager and wanted to push the envelope and things we could try to do. And they were just really, like, slow. But I was so passionate and obsessed with it. I was just like, I gotta do more. Gotta do more. So I started freelancing on the side for others in the Amazon space. I had a question, as you’re kind of sharing that, knowing that your dad had built a company and a successful exit, I would assume. How did he feel about you? You know, dropping out of school and going into sales at 19.

AJ Cassata 07:29
He supported my dad’s always been cool to just like, let me do whatever I want to do. Not a bad way. Like, I’m missing women staying healthy and safe and all that, but like more supporting me and my brothers’ sisters, career decisions, even if it was like, you know, working on pizza delivery forever, right? He’s just more like, hey, just do what makes you happy. Right? But because he was always like, drop out of school and work. I think he saw that. Like, it wasn’t really that I necessarily wanted to build the business. My mom freaked out because she was a nurse. So she was like school, school, school. She’s now almost 16. She’s going back to school again for like her second master’s, which is nuts. So she was not too happy about it. But it’s kind of every student.

Andrew Morgans 08:04
Yeah. I was just curious, because I think it can go either way, you know, you can have parents even that are entrepreneurs that are just like, wow, this is really big, it’s a hard thing. You know, it’s a hard thing to create something out of nothing. And you can have others that are like, I definitely had the dad that was, you know, he took us to Africa, in the middle of the jungle. So he was definitely like, you know, chase your dreams, jump ball and kind of guy. Just curious how that went down in your family. Okay, so you, you’re working a sales job, you’re trying Facebook leads starting to work. You’ve been doing marketing and getting kind of bored with, you know, going door to door. You’re just like, this isn’t a scale. It’s gonna be more scalable. And you start consulting on the side for some friends or some, you know, some colleagues doing business stuff. Was it just you? Did you bring in some friends that you started packaging your offers? Like, how did that agency come to life?

AJ Cassata 08:59
Yeah, so at first, I was just doing whatever I could get my hands on, like, you know, probably a lot of people start an agency where they’re just doing okay, you need a website, I’ll do that for you. But you need to learn how to do that for yourself. Just kind of exhausting. You know, my network. I remember my first serious client was a bagel shop, which I thought was, which is hilarious. I still remember someone with that deal. But yeah, I did partner with a buddy of mine who worked in the company and was also interested in maybe moving on and doing something else at that point of starting a business. So we ended up just kind of freelancing together, but there wasn’t really like a focus or a niche or a clear offer. I didn’t even know what that was. And I was just kind of, again, just really obsessing with it like you are and just helping out whoever I knew with whatever I said, and then along the way, kind of started to realize I really need to niche down and focus and actually build something scalable. I’m the first one to just do whatever I get my hands on and just kind of learn as much as I can about the marketing space.

Andrew Morgans 09:46
Okay, so whenever you arrive there whenever you arrive at like, I need to niche down and you had a buddy helping you kind of freelancing alongside each other. And I definitely understand that I definitely left my company and had a partner at the time where we were kind of working in tandem. She did marketing, brand management, and Facebook ads logo design, and I was like Amazon and making the sales and going out there and getting business. But we were really just freelancers working, you know, calling it under the same umbrella. And then there was this moment where I had taken a trip to Thailand, with my sister, and had just the tip of my life and like opened my mind. And I came back and was just like, I want to build something much bigger than what I’m doing, something I can, you know, take care of my family and just create a different lifestyle for myself than freelancing, so to speak. And that was maybe six years ago, in a nine-year journey. So the first three years were like freelancing and just doing projects. And then the last six, I’ve been just like, really, I’m building an agency. You know, how did that start to take shape? Just curious, like, as you started to build your offer and niche down? Did your partner go with you with that idea? You know, was it something you were like, I’m gonna go a different direction. I want to try to, you know, focus on this. Where did the next step come from?

AJ Cassata 11:08
Yeah, I mean, it was, so the partner didn’t follow. And there was a point where I realized, like, I want to do this, I want to go on, and I want to do it properly. And my partner still wanted to stay at his sales job for a bit. So I was like, Okay, I’ll just do this on my own. The girl I was dating at the time, my ex-girlfriend, also wanted to quit her job. So she was interested in what I was doing. So I’m like, Hey, why don’t you partner with me, and I’ll teach you what I know or what I’ve learned so far. And you can handle a lot of the back end of finance. I hate dealing with that stuff. And I’ll just focus more on getting clients. So yeah, I left that one Martin was he was just more looking at as like a side hustle and ended up, yeah, going all in with a girlfriend at the time. And we actually ended up deciding to get into a van and travel to the US. And we lived on the road for like almost six months. And we would go down to some of the major cities in the US and just prospect clients. So it was very much pretty much like vagabonding.

Andrew Morgans 11:55
Now we’re getting to the good stuff. Okay, so you’re then going door to door, but now like a city to city, and just prospecting? Did you like to pick a specific business type that was kind of your sweet spot? Like, you know, you started with construction services, and then you’re doing other service-based businesses like a bagel shop, and you know, probably restaurants and things like that. Did you ever get into did you stay B2B? I guess that is what I’m getting at? And if so, you know, what was working at that time? It was really working for you guys. Yeah.

AJ Cassata 12:26
So at that time, you know, after I did it for about a year, so I’m just the odd freelancing, I realized that it wasn’t scalable to just be the everything person for everyone, right, like we all realized at some point. So we started focusing on alternative health-based businesses like natural paths or like gyms or fitness studios because that’s what me and my girlfriend at the time were really passionate about. And we also had a lot of connections there, because she worked in that space previously. So we focus on those businesses. And yeah, we would just go from city to city and just basically build a list of prospects, right, a list of companies that fit that niche, like yoga studios, fitness studios, health food stores, things like that. And, yeah, we would build the list and have the address, have the phone number, have the social media. And really, it worked. At first, we just tried everything, nothing, nothing really worked for a while, it was like two months of just absolute crickets. And it was like, Okay, I’m running out of money, I think I’m gonna have to go back home soon, and maybe get my old job back. But then really, like, I knew that, I knew that outbound was always going to be a good way that was kind of where I first discovered it. And I realized that okay, I did for years, you know, building cells into this company and doing telemarketing cold calling door to door, maybe I can do that in the online space. So that’s when we started like DMing people on social media deeming business owners, but we always get a gatekeeper. So that didn’t really work. We showed up in person, but it always felt like we were stalking people, because they were like, come back later, we’ll come back later, like, wait outside the parking lot. And also, again, always live with the gatekeepers. So what did actually click was doing cold emails, so sending personalized emails, we even would record videos like talking about the business and how much one helps there we can see that using permanent with. So after trying a lot of things with no luck for months, and yeah, literally at one point, I remember I had like, less than 500 bucks in my neck and I was like, Okay, we might have to travel home, right because like, I need to get a client like fast otherwise this is this is not going to work. Right at that point, like things started clicking with cold email, we got a few callbacks. And then just in a couple of weeks, we closed a couple of clients for like two to 3k retainers that point niched down to just doing paid media so Facebook and Google ads specifically just for lead gen. And yeah, like just within a couple weeks time we had 6k and monthly retainers. And I was like, Okay, I’m safe. And now I need to know this nice work and this awful work. And we end that once I don’t think of a client so it was like, just kind of rinse and repeat by that point.

Andrew Morgans 14:35
Yeah, had your first offer and I think that’s, that’s so big for a business that’s trying to get like, you know, it’s flooding is essentially fine. Where’s that one area where I can get revenue? And rinse and repeat. I think a lot of times like I’m definitely like a hybrid kind of personality where I’m an artist and I’m you know, I’m data driven. I’ve got a computer science degree in networking and security, and I know how to build systems. program. But I really think of myself as like, a creative person and artists person, like I grew up in a weird environment where imagination was everything and you know, so I’m I’m a dreamer Well, knowing those two things you’ve got, you know, I’ve definitely connect with a lot of artists and makers and things like that. And so often there, they want to, you know, let’s say that you are the you are building websites, you know, and you’re like, I want to build dope websites, I’m gonna build really cool websites, but you’re just having a hard time getting a 5000 or 10,000, our website built, you know, or landing that with the client that we’ve already got one or this or that, we’ll find what they’re, they’re struggling to get right struggle, you know? Is it that they need more business? As you know, the leads have a direct ROI to them. And I think that that’s something that’s big, when it comes to selling your services is like, what can you do as a creative, that you can rinse and repeat and do over and over and over again, so you’re not having to figure out reinvent the wheel every time you’re trying to find a project or a deal? And, you know, if you’re a videographer, if you’re a photographer, is it weddings? Is it cars? Is it parks, is it food, you know, and dig down into that niche and get a little bit of a reputation for that little bit of a playbook that you can show to the next client, look what we did here, look what we did here. And that can then create whatever else you want to do down the road, right. But for me, at least in the Amazon space, at the beginning, I was doing a lot of stuff I didn’t love. But it was enough to give me the freedom to continue doing what I was doing and not go back to a day job. So I love that. Thank you for sharing that. So you’ve got your first couple of clients, you’re still in the vein on the road, you’ve got a couple retainer clients, you’re like this is working, which is an amazing feeling when it first started. And you’re just like, Yeah, I got it. I don’t have to go home. Okay, so did you guys just keep running that with the paid media side? Like what, you know, obviously, you’re in Vietnam there, Vietnam now. And I think you have a different agency now than you did then. kind of tell the life story of that business.

AJ Cassata 17:05
Yeah, so we ended up crossing the 10k mark shortly after, because again, once you kind of figure out what I that’s what I realize, once you figure out your niche and your offer, and it works, you have a couple of clients that you deliver something to and they’re happy, and they all look the same. It’s just rinse and repeat. So we just kept really just refining our outbound process, which is cold email. And, and again, we’ll be back into the house after that point, because now we have sustainable income from the business. So fun travels are over. And now it’s time to just grow it. But then I ended up moving out because one of them was traveling to Vietnam, and me and the business partner kind of split up as we started kind of growing apart, like we’re getting broken up, actually. But we were still on good terms and working together. But then things just kind of didn’t really click as we’re going different directions. And I think moving across the world didn’t really, really help us that much. And then plus at that point, you know, we COVID hit and we lost like 80% of our clients. So that was an opportunity. Okay, now at least we have an opportunity to maybe just split up and do our own thing.

Andrew Morgans 17:58
Can we pause right there just for a second. So COVID hit you lost 20% of your clients 80% Sorry, was that because you were in like the gym fitness like in person? Those were because I was ultimately, you know, the majority of your clients.

AJ Cassata 18:14
Yeah. And all of our clients were all like brick and mortar local businesses. So they were like, they love what you’re doing. And they’re all just like, hey, you just like, let go half our staff and put them on like pause. So we have to do more business.

Andrew Morgans 18:23
Yeah, yeah. So what were the businesses that stayed if you had a few where they just like ones that weren’t in person where there some ones that stayed open, like us specifically, like in the ecommerce space in the Amazon space. I would say during the pandemic, we didn’t gain a lot of new clients, like we weren’t getting a lot of new people to say, oh, I want to take this Amazon journey or I want to invest in, you know, my EECOM. But we were blessed and fortunate to not lose a lot. We lost a few and just buckled down and kind of rode the wave. I’m interested to just hear about like, kind of like, who stayed who was still like, I guess using paid media because some of the businesses that stayed with us exploded like during that time they really, really grew. Who was the 20%? And what pivot came from that? Yeah, anything that was really essential.

AJ Cassata 19:14
So like we had some doctors offices or clinics, and those were the ones that I guess got hit until us by it right because they were still in most places like still allowed to sell out to do business. But yeah, it was tough. For sure. It was like finding that building right? Finally I accomplished what I or the beginning of what I set out to do after leaving my job, but then it was just like a big, huge setback. But I know a lot of people suffered and suffered greatly to COVID So that was tough for all of us. But it was a cool thing for me because again, like I was already kind of grown away, I have grown apart from the business partner. So it was like an opportunity to just go out on the mound and do the next thing. And I was thinking about really applying Legion on a larger scale. So I ended up joining a coaching program with Dan wardrobe and my buddy who was visiting me in Vietnam. He really wanted to go in this direction. And he’s more of like a technical media buying guy, I’m more of a sales guy. So we decided to partner up for a kind of relaunch. And we did pay release. So we basically did national level lead gen for companies and home services, you know, back to back to my roots, and then also business finance. So that was where we would do like, we’d say, Hey, you don’t have to pay anything, and you just pre pay for the reads. And we would just pay for the leads on our own dime, and then charge them like $56, a lead. So that was kind of when I first stepped into performance marketing, which was a ton of fun, a lot of risk, a lot of reward, we had some clients we lost money on. But some clients were paying us like, even 10-20k a month. So that was a cool experience, because I learned like I was doing the same thing, essentially. But I was just instead of working brick and mortar, I was working with companies that would value what I was doing a lot more, or I could bring a lot more value to because they were like, you know, just large companies, and pretty much doing the same thing, but just applying it in a different vehicle. And that was a huge shift, and of course, getting some coaching, you know, being able to reinvest back into the business. That was helpful too. Because up until that point, it was just like winging it.

Andrew Morgans 21:01
Did you get that idea from an I forget the name that you use, you said you joined a course you got some coaching? Was it through that coaching that kind of said, Hey, this is how I want to restructure my business and the type of niche I want to go for. And this performance marketing might be elite, because I do believe as someone that started with like set retainers and needing to know what I was going to get paid on a project to going into like, Okay, I’m really betting on myself on the performance marketing, because I’ve always been someone that’s just like, you know, I’m very careful with resources, because I just didn’t have a lot, you know, growing up. So it’d be like, okay, to go spend on these ads, or just spend on this, these products, and hope that we get sales in order to get paid for the work is a leap. I think that’s a, you know, it’s a ballsy move so to speak. Did you get kind of some of this direction from coaching? Or was it just something that you’re like, look, people are asking us to? Well, can we just pay per lead? And you’re like, let’s give it a shot go like, what, what kind of pushed you in that direction?

AJ Cassata 21:59
Yeah, it all started by just finding a course with a guy named Dan Wardrobe. He teaches a marketing agency kind of shift and shifts a performance based model. And it was a buddy of mine who visited me that was like following your stuff. For months, it was like, Hey, man, we got to do this, this is a great opportunity. Because at that point, I had the cell system like I had the repeatable way to get clients and generate leads. So what’s a higher leverage opportunity? I could, I could, I could focus on now that I have the opportunity since like, the business is just at a whole pause with COVID. So yeah, I started with the course. And then it definitely is a big leap to go full performance base. So we still kept some retainer clients, I think if you’re, if you’re changing your knees, you’re changing the direction, your company doesn’t have to be always an overnight thing. It could be a gradual process that you’re still, you know, covered with your expenses and whatnot. So it was a gradual thing. But then like six months later, we had pretty much most of our most of our revenue coming in just from hit release. And again, it was, it was really risky. It’s it’s, but if you know what you’re doing, and you know the space really well, and you know what the leads cost, and it works fine. But we again, got some clients that were working hard for getting paid nothing because we weren’t, we weren’t getting the results, we needed some clients that are paying us upwards of 10k a month. So it was fun. It was definitely exciting.

Andrew Morgans 23:06
Okay, so it was fun. That obviously leads to saying that something changed from there, which I want to get into before we do a shout out again, to our sponsor, finding expert software developers doesn’t have to be difficult, especially when you visit FullScale.io where you can build a software team quickly and affordably. Use the Full Scale platform to define your technical needs, and then see what available developers, testers, and leaders are ready to join your team. Visit FullScale.io to learn more. So you know our title for today is laying clients without breaking your bank. And lead generation and landing clients in the b2b space isn’t easy, it can take a lot of money. If you’re if you’re paying for ads, or you’re spinning in the wrong era spinning in the wrong area. Mark Knology has worked with clients as you know, fortune 100 all the way down to mom and pop shops. So we’ve kind of worked the gambit but a lot of the time it’s companies with limited resources that we’re trying to compete with the big dogs. Talk to me and I don’t want to get away from your story too much when it comes back to it. But you know, you were spending money in this performance based model, you were spending money ahead of time expecting to get leads based on your efforts, you know, and then get paid huge upside, but some risk as well. And it takes some money to make money in that model. Knowing that we’re talking about ways of marketing your business without spending money, where does that come into play here? Because, you know, obviously lead gen with Facebook ads and stuff like that takes money. What was the next step?

AJ Cassata 24:35
Yeah, for sure. So what we’re doing for our clients involved and budget but to get our clients and basically build our roster in the first place. We were just using free methods mainly, so that was LinkedIn outreach, and that was cold email outreach, and then a little bit of cold calling as well. But that was kind of what I had developed from my first attempt at building the agency. It was what worked over there and then brick and mortar space so I just apply them to different spaces and overtime is really good for finding the whole album process. So yeah, I mean, I’m a big believer like, you don’t need to spend a lot of money to get clients. I didn’t have any money when I started my first business because I kind of left my job in the hall and didn’t have much savings. I was just really eager to go all in for it. I didn’t really plan years in advance for it. So yeah, I mean, I think desperation breeds that creativity right there.

Andrew Morgans 25:18
When you get your back against the wall, when you’re done with your last 500 You’re like, what else can we do? It can also be almost like a toxic behavior and addictive behavior, at least for myself, something I worked through, where my best self comes out when my backs against the wall. So at times, I can kind of try to create that back against the wall situation. Just because I enjoy that version of myself when I’m at my best and my senses are heightened, and my creativity is heightened. How do I get to my best self without everything going crazy and chaos? So I can, you know, I can relate to that. Because at times, you know whether it’s a relationship or it’s in your business, like you’re not trying to create chaos, you know, you want to just be your best self at all times. But it is interesting how, when, when you have to figure it out, a lot of times you do and the best entrepreneurs always do figure that out. Okay, so you guys are doing Legion? What comes next in your story in regards to your partner that you had, then are you still guys still partners? Now? Is that Revenue Boost? Or was there another iteration of change since then?

AJ Cassata 26:21
Yeah. So I started Revenue Boost along the way. And I actually started with my wife, so I’ll get into that. But what happened was, so I was building this, I was building the formance based lead gen company, and a lot of other people in that coaching program. I was in that community with Dan wardrobe, they were reaching out to me asking us like, how are we getting clients and I kind of realized that a lot of these agencies were struggling with getting clients. To me, that was the easy part of the business because that was what I did in my job for five years, I worked in sales and sales management. So like the outbound lead generating leads, reaching out to decision makers at companies was like, you know, 90 days for me. So at that point, I started just helping some of these other people, other other entertainers, I met other people in the community, just for free. And then I remember one guy was like, amen, this was really helpful. We had like a call, like I have done with the sales process for like, an hour or so, you know, I grew up playing a sales call. And I was telling them how we’re using cold email to generate clients. And he was like, it’s super helpful, can I pay you for this, and I was like, you pay for this, like, I was just talking to you and telling you what I did. And that’s when I realized what consulting was. And so I anyway, and then working with that one agency owner, a couple more people came my way, you know, started using referrals, word of mouth for that. And I really enjoyed it. Because when I worked in my corporate job, I did a lot of things like sales coaching. And I really enjoyed coaching and leading a team and like teaching people, you know, mentoring them. So that was really where I got like a huge spark in the filament. And I saw that gap too, because I was like, most of these other agency owners, they might, they’re coming from the opposite background, I find that most agency owners, they, they worked like in an agency, they worked at a company doing marketing, and they know the craft and have the skill where I was the opposite. I came from doing sales, and I kind of learned like, what we were doing at the time, and I had a partner that did the fulfillment. So I saw a huge gap and saw all these agencies that need help with sales. And that’s why I decided to be okay, I had a couple consulting clients, let me actually start proper business, because I really enjoyed it and saw the need. So that’s where we started Revenue Boost with my wife at the time. She was working in real estate, but then COVID basically messed up the whole market in Vietnam. So I was like, hey, you know, let’s say the right one, shall we build this because I can use a lot on the back end. So yeah, along the way, started revenues and just started teaching, teaching our outbound sales strategies to other agencies and helping them with their whole whole customer acquisition process.

Andrew Morgans 28:25
No, I love it. And it’s something that as an agency owner, myself, I didn’t come from an agency background. Definitely, like bootstrapping a server, working in warehouses, being a painter, having been a landscaper in Hawaii during college, like working at a surf shop, was a traveling musician for four and a half years. I’ve done a lot in a short amount of time, just trying to find my thing before I found ecommerce, but the agency world wasn’t as common or familiar for me. So it was definitely something that was bringing all my other skills to the business. You know, and then learning the agency stuff as I go, as I meet other agency owners, or just the Amazon industry was so different from everything else, that a lot of times it was hard to kind of just match up and use it as an example. But, you know, I was using sites like Upwork and freelancer.com. And there were no Amazon service providers at that time when I really started so I was kind of like a blue ocean, I was just in there finding leads and things like that. But now at this time, our business almost works entirely off of things like referrals or inbound marketing. And outbound is actually something that I’m in a course for me and me and my sales guy kind of going through trying to learn some of the processes for cold email and things like that. It’s definitely not something that is just plug and play. There’s a science to it. So lead gen running Facebook ads, you know, or running paid media to get ads. But you’ve hinted at content marketing, you’ve hinted at, you know, kind of doing some of the manual work on LinkedIn. After building your list or building your customer, your customer list, what does that look like? For someone that doesn’t have a paid media budget that’s trying to go out there and get business? Obviously, for me, content marketing is something that takes months, sometimes even years to really get rolling. It’s like a snowball effect. Before it’s really kind of producing results for you at a high level. Is that something you agree with? or disagree with? You know, what’s the starting point for someone trying to cold email? Yeah, absolutely. No.

AJ Cassata 30:29
And I think even if you do have a paid media budget, if if you could spend a little bit money to get your business off the ground, you should still start with like outbound right, because, you know, the beginning of launching a new business or a new offer, you’re still figuring out, like, who’s the right person to sell this to? What’s the messaging around it? And if you walk into running pay media without being really clear on your business, and the core components of it, you’re gonna end up burning a lot of money in testing, right? So I think that no matter what, it is just a great way to launch a new business and just validate or offer validate your nation and pretty, you know, again, low cost environment, cuz you’re just paying for software. So like, when so Yeah, as far as someone getting started with cold email, there’s only three steps, the process that we teach there is identify which is building a list of prospects. So you don’t want to just go online, LinkedIn and just randomly messaging people, you want to do a curated list of target clients, right, maybe a couple 100, a couple 1000. And just do that in bulk, and then just go one by one, messaging them through a sequence. So first is actually building the list targeting is really important. Because again, if you’re getting a great message, a great offer, but it’s going to the wrong person, then it doesn’t really matter, right. So that’s the first part to get right. So first, you build your list. Second, would be a message. So actually reading your copy and structuring it into a sequence you want, you don’t want to have to message, you don’t want to have to come up with a new message every time and just use that creative energy. Ideally, you just write a template that would fit for your list of prospects, you know, and you can personalize it a little bit, maybe change the first 10% to like, you know, customized to that person, but really should just be like templated, plug and play. That way, you’re not having to think every time you want to mess with someone, right. And the third step would be follow up because you did a lot of people that are responding to your messaging on LinkedIn, or email or whether you’re doing some social media. But then you have to actually follow up to get them interested to book a call with you. So those are really the three steps the process, also a reason I recommend it’s a great channel for someone getting started, because there’s not too many moving parts to it, you just have to really kind of get better at targeting, get better writing, copy or read or get better at following up to move people into calls. But those are the three, three things I just need to, you know, again, get down from a process standpoint.

Andrew Morgans 32:23
Yeah, a couple of things that I did. For me, cold email was like I was on Upwork and Elance. And I didn’t really know email marketing at the time I was new to freelancing, new to getting clients, I had read a blog about Upwork Elance. And that was like where people that were working from home or remote, remote marketers finding work. And I was like writing up these just different email templates, I guess, like and you can message clients or apply for the job. And so I would kind of get, like, apply all kinds of comment, maybe add a little bit of like custom messaging inside each one, but really just a couple seconds, and was copying and pasting doing anywhere between 20 and 50 a weekend and so 123 jobs through that, even though they were like, you know, very low income at that time, it was like still, I was leaning business. And I would try all different kinds of approaches. Like I’m an ecommerce manager by day I would try more aggressive ones, I would try more passive ones I would try. You know, super confident ones. Trying all different language and email types bullet point lists, I really struggled to not be overly professional. So I’m tattooed and got gauges like, you know, and if someone sees me they might not think like, this guy’s gonna run my business or this guy’s you know, set to tell me what to do with my business. So when it came across through digital marketing, I like overcorrecting. And I wanted to be super professional, just like you know, outline communication, very proper English, just like a little bit too much, really, because it was like not my voice, not Andrew’s voice. And it honestly took some sales, coaching, sales, copy coaching to get me where I have, like, I can write my voice better. But it worked. And I knew that I could go back to that as my business would go through different ups and downs where I’m like, Okay, we’ve lost a few clients, we really need some business I need to be, I’m down to my 500 I need to be able to pay the bills. And I would just get on there and hustle again, building out my list, finding jobs to apply for at times I was on Craigslist. I don’t really feel like LinkedIn. When I first started this LinkedIn was as big of a platform for getting business. It just wasn’t either. I was too young to understand that or it wasn’t as big at the time. And so it was like, you know, these sites, but it was huge in regards to me really getting my start and the only way no one knew of Mark Knology no one knew of Andrew Morgans. No one knew of our company in Kansas City. No one knew that. People were doing Amazon services, where it’s like people coming to us As I was going through them and saying, you know, let me help you with your problem. And not, there’s not always sites like Upwork or Elance, for what everyone’s doing. I know that there are different mediums in different industries. But for me, it was a hustle. And I knew that if I did, if I put in enough work, if I made enough cold calls, if I made enough cold emails, I was gonna get clients. So I can understand why that works. Today, I’m sure just the methods have changed a little bit, like you said, Well, you’re building up your list on LinkedIn. Talk to me about like, let’s say the, you know, there’s a podcast for founders, we have people of all different levels here. You’re like, I don’t know exactly who my client is, like, you had figured out that you wanted to do gyms and health services and things like that. And at the beginning with me, I didn’t know am I talking to an E commerce manager, the digital marketing manager, or am I talking to CEO, the VP of sales, who wants to know about Amazon, and wants to talk to me about that I struggled to figure out who I should be connecting with. And you talk about outbound marketing being like, I need to test my offer. What’s the strategy for, I guess, testing a new offer? With a list? Like what would you go about? What would be some beginner steps for someone trying to build that first list?

AJ Cassata 36:11
Yes, one question. I get asked that a lot. And again, when I first got into the app on Legion, I struggled with it too, right? Because there’s, you know, if you open up LinkedIn, right, you’ll see there’s like, tons and tons of people, right, you build any list, you’ll see that there’s like a lot of really good, but how many you can work with tons of different search folders as well. So I would say, Okay, there’s probably two or three jobs, people listening to this somewhere, and you have a business, some that are just getting started. If you’ve already had a business, you already have had clients before, you seem to reflect right? Think about your best clients, the clients that were the easiest to work with and the most profitable that stayed the longest. And what were the job titles that you originally spoke to that made that decision, right? And what do the companies look like? What country were they and how big were they? They like the early stage, or were already having like future employees, right. So just think between the commonalities and the characteristics between your best clients, that’s going to be the best way to just, again, figure out who you should really hone in and focus on going forward. And if you’re starting a new business, and you don’t have clients already, then again, you’re just gonna have to go through that experimentation process, right, just through thinking, reflecting. And you can do limited market research, maybe talk to some of the people in your space. But LinkedIn allows you to do all this research for free, right? You can go find, like 10, 20, 50 companies, pull them up that fit who you want to work with, and just look at, like, what are the job titles? What are the different people that work inside of this company in the marketing department or whatever department you’re working with. So you deliver the research, but you just have to experiment. So if you don’t really know who the right type of company is, or what the right job title is, you’re just gonna have to experiment. But you can just you can AB test that just like you would a B test copyright. So you can have three lists, you know, write one word is the CMO one where the operations manager was? One, where the business owner, you know, has similar coffee, but of course, talks about a different pain point or different desire, because different jobs I was in a company would care about different things. But try to keep everything else mostly the same. And then just see, like, Who are you getting the most responses from? Right? So you can, you can test that out, just like you would test out, copy your creativity.

Andrew Morgans 38:00
I love it. And I know, I know, me personally on LinkedIn, once I got, I think my business got over a million in sales, I started getting blasted, I must have hit some kind of tear, where now I’m of a certain size to hit people’s lists. Because my, you know, my DMs, if I was a single guy, and these were on Instagram, I would be like, over inundated with data. But it wasn’t LinkedIn. And it was people just like, You know what, in my business, I mean, every single day, there’s probably like, 3040 messages in my LinkedIn. But there are certain ones that specifically stick out to me. And we were talking a little bit earlier. For me, it’s like, it’s the ones I’ve taken a little bit of time to actually understand my business. I feel like I’ve built something unique. It didn’t exist before. There are other Amazon agencies, but let’s look at age, I probably was building my company before they came about. So for a while I had this chip on my shoulder that’s like people don’t even like researching what we do, or how we do it. And they’re just like, you know, blanketly hitting me with one liners at the bar, so to speak. Talk to me, like for me, it was like someone taking the time to make a little a little video or screen recording about, you know, some of my business or how they think or maybe an idea they’re sharing with me about how they think they can get me clients, not just some generic mumbo jumbo. But like, specifically, if I felt like I read something that was tailored to me like this, this guy or this girl, like really thought about Mark Knology and what type of clients were getting, they looked at maybe some of my portfolios on on the website and saw clients and looked at for a similar one like that and are talking to me about that, or referencing that these kinds of things made me like, Oh, this is they actually care about me. They’re actually like researching my business and my field in my industry and definitely catch my attention, especially when it’s just like blind blind pick up blind blind pick up blind blind pick up line and you get one that’s like, I really like your red hair. Or like something personal, you know, you’re just like, Okay, well thank you so much. That’s me just being a little dramatic and funny about it. But honestly, I think that is the difference like that person. Lies, it can be masked, but also a little personalize what’s working, I guess in some of those, like just just a generic answer, I guess around what’s working when you’re trying to cold email a prospective client?

AJ Cassata 40:13
Yes, that’s a really good point, you know that we’re getting inundated with pitches, right? Even if you just sign up for a LinkedIn account, you’ll have five people DMing you tomorrow, right? So overall, what I would recommend everyone does is go actually in your LinkedIn account, or go on your email and start paying attention to cold email pitches that you get right, start looking at, like what starts feeling what feels like to actually be a prospect, right? Cuz that’s the best way to get into the mind of a prospect is to actually just be one, right? So what I do is I have a category in my or filter my Gmail, where I have like, good cold emails, okay, cold emails, and then awful ones. And I’ll just like, put the bad ones in there for the okay ones in there, and then put the best ones that actually got me to click and maybe reply into another one. And whenever I’m writing, whenever I’m writing a copy, I’ll look between the two, or between the three. And once you start doing this for a couple of weeks, you’ll start seeing patterns, right, you’ll start seeing that most people write in the same way, just like you said, right? You said that you’re getting tons and tons of emails, and we’ll see the same and a lot of them don’t stand out. And now there’s also more than ever, so it’s becoming more important to stand out. After COVID, there’s over 100% increase in cold emails being sent. Right. So think about that, just in the last few years, there’s almost double the amount of people sending Colima pages to prospects, right. And you’re not really just competing with your competitors, you’re competing with anyone that’s pitching your prospect anything, right? Because you’re all competing, at the end of the day for their time, attention and money, right? So you’ve got to look at like anyone else that’s emailing your prospects or reaching out to them as competition because it’s just, it’s, you know, they only have limited attention, right. So again, start to look at all the people that reach out to you and just look for the patterns, and then you’ll be able to easily see like, okay, 80% of people do this. And it’s not very good and all looks the same. So let me just let me just not do that right. An example is what most people do is they’ll just start off an email talking about themselves and their company. The one tip I can give the audience is to flip the script to talk about the prospect and their problems, right? Where the red hair, right? Rather than talking about your product and your company, because no one really cares about your product and your company, until they know that you can help them with their life, right? Because again, up until like, five seconds before they read your email, you’re just a complete stranger, right? So they don’t they don’t have a reason to care about you yet, right? It’s kind of like people that send cold emails, and they just try to talk about their company, their product and the benefits. It’s just like skipping past the whole sales process, right? It’s like, first, like, let’s see if this person even has a need or has a problem in the first place, right? Or would it be like at the bar going up to a girl and being like, hey, can we get married tomorrow, like I already picked up the venue, right? So you can just skip those sales reps and get right to the sale. And you’re not really you’re not really trying to make a sale in cold outreach or outbound, you’re just trying to start a conversation before you can try to make a sale, right. And again, you’d ideally move that person over to a call to, you know, go through the rest of the sales process. But yes, start with that start with just looking at what’s out there. So you can see what your prospects are seeing. And so you can know how to be different. As far as how to be different. Yeah, move videos are a great way if you can actually, you can actually send a video to a prospect. Or another great tip is to ask them, if they want a video, send them an email, like you already had made a video for them and just be like, Hey, should I send this to you? Or should I send it to someone else? Right? So let’s say that you’re offering Amazon services, right? You could say, Hey, I noticed that a couple of your listings were missing some of the best practices and this might be losing you guys some conversions. I prepared a video to help you out and to add value, should I send it to you? Or should I send it to someone else. And if you do that, then you can actually prevent yourself from having to make a lot of videos for people that don’t watch it because you’re kind of getting them to opt in for us. That’s it. That’s a good tip. But yeah, we got a lot of clients who are doing really well with sending like video analysis or live videos, because again, it’s just a way to stand out, you don’t see it a lot if it takes effort. And it also puts the focus more on the prospect of their business, their need for their problems, rather than just yourself, right. So that’s a great strategy as well. But really, like any form of personalization is going to be great for your company. And like you said, if you’re doing it en masse, you can still personalize it a little bit. You can kind of segment it. So I got a really cool cold email recently, from someone offering PR services. And he said, like, Hey, Jay, I saw you’re from New York, go Knicks. And I actually ended up, you know, connecting with a guy and I had him on our podcast because he’s a, he’s a, I was seeing his cold emails for like months and months. I’m like, Okay, this guy must be really doing this at scale. And what he was telling me was, he actually didn’t, didn’t personalize the email, it was all he was sending out 10s of 1000s a month. But he was breaking it up by state and having each state go into different campaigns where he just called them a sports team, right? I like the city or the state. So you can do that, you can take a big list, you can still do automated outreach, and just segmented out so that you’re kind of grouping people together based on state or company size or industry, whatever, and still make it feel personalized. The whole idea is to make it feel relevant, right what most of the reason a lot of clothing must go in the trash is because you read it and it just doesn’t look relevant to you, right? Like how many times have you got an offer and an email or LinkedIn message. And you could just say, if this person actually looked at your website, they would not have offered that to you. It’s just it has no relevance to your business, right? So that’s kind of like what our prospects are doing whenever they’re reading our copy. They’re thinking, Is this relevant for me right? Like this could be great. It’s gonna be the best thing in the world but he actually helped me with my business, right? So yeah, you can, you can still find that balance of personalizing versus mass automation, if you just segment your list and kind of have that the best of both the best of both worlds?

Andrew Morgans 45:10
No, I think you’re exactly right. I couldn’t, couldn’t say it better, like whether it’s, you know, at least in Kansas City. It matters to be in Kansas City, Kansas City, people like supporting locals, they want to do business with Kansas City people. So you know, that would be a huge, huge way of connecting with someone’s like, Hey, we’re both in Kansas City, Hey, I just see that you used to live in Kansas City or something like that. It’s just yeah, you know, that works here. Another thing is, like, I get a lot of, like, after I’ve been to a conference, or even if I signed up for a contract conference, a lot of times getting emails and Legion from other businesses. They’re they’re like, Hey, I know, we didn’t get to connect at XYZ, or, I saw that you’re at XYZ. So it was I, you know, some common ground, I guess, to have that conversation. And those are the ones that really catch my eye. And I’m like, oh, did I run into them? Like, you know, at least like, think about it? Like, you know, did I see their company there? Did I see that? It makes you be like, Okay, we’re at least in the same industry. I would have gone to that conference, and maybe meet them in person anyway, because that’s why you’re there. They’re done at work. So great advice, like, so we’re coming up on time. And before we like to round out, this has all been super amazing, super helpful. to things like what’s something you’re working on? In the company that you’re excited about? And 2023? You know, besides just getting new clients with something you guys are working towards? Maybe it’s a new way of lead gen or, or or some area of taking the business and then to ask AJ, what’s something you’re working on that you’re excited about? You know, personally?

AJ Cassata 46:36
Yes, the first one was just for business. Yeah. Yeah, one thing I’m excited for is to start building up our team, or we have a team of nine people now. And I’ve kind of realized, you know, what, um, after being in business for a while you start to, you probably get it to right, you start to realize what you’re good at, what gives you energy, what doesn’t. And I’ve started to realize that I’m really not an operations person, I spent a lot of time helping our clients and helping our team. But I really, you know, I’m in my happy place when I’m writing, copying, working on content, working on marketing strategy, or working on our product. So we just hired our first executive roles Operations Manager, and I’m really excited to keep building out that side of the business so I can pass off departments fully, and just have that free time back, right. Like, you know, I’ve started to, you know, I’ve started to systemize the business a little more, I’ve got myself out of sales. So we have a sales team. Next is operations. But I’m just really excited to see more of the machine running by itself and allowing me to work on what I do best and spend more time working on the vision and the strategy, improving the products. That’s something I’m super, super excited about.

Andrew Morgans 47:36
Yeah, that’s a big step. That’s a big step. I think 10 employees specifically is like a benchmark. It’s a real team, like at that point, and now that you’re not a real team, now, it’s just like, Wow, 10 the communication has to be different. You know, delegation is different, your systems are different, it’s a level, it’s a level to it. And for me, probably the last, I’ve been out of it, maybe like eight months, but for two years prior to this, from 2020. Till, you know, 2022 was very much in operations and trying to scale the business, we brought in consultants coaching, it was just like, let’s get all our systems better, let’s get our project management better, let’s get our SOPs better. And that’s just not for me, like I am an innovator. I’m a trailblazer, I like to create, I like to be in that creative marketing idea space, that’s where I’m at my best versus like, this thing is at 90% I needed to be at 98%. And I’m gonna just like, you know, just dial it in and tweak it and optimize it and really focus on it because I’m someone that’s like, that’s great. You know, instead of like, that could be just a little bit better like a shade of yellow just like you know, dialed in. That’s just not me to nitpick stuff. Like you know, I like to be a visionary so I 100% understand what that too many owners get stuck doing the things that they hate and then they they fall out of love with their business and what they’re rolling out in front Okay, and then you know, to round out like you outside of the business just to bring a little intentionality there because you know, the founders we have multiple facets to our life you know, what’s something that you’re working on? Just in 2023? Or that you’re like a new hobby or something you’re exploring that you’re excited about?

AJ Cassata 49:15
Yeah, one thing on the personal side I’m excited for is likely to be moving over next year. I’ve been in Vietnam for the last four years so I went from New York living in New York to living in Vietnam, which is literally two polar opposites. And now looking forward to being somewhere living in the middle with a more acidic bus with a little more stuff to do, but also still very chill and relaxed like the parents do that here and my wife’s from Vietnam as well. I met her while I was traveling out here. She’s never lived anywhere else. She never took her to the US for the first time last Christmas. He was amazed right? So yeah, we’re actually looking at it moved back to the US or gonna be checking out some spots in Europe like maybe Portugal or Spain legal for visited and see where when it moved, but it’s gonna be hectic because I’ve been here the last four years and we also have three dogs, so we got to figure out how to move them, but I’m really excited for the next chapter. I always find just moving and going to a new place or changing environment. It just brings so much creativity and fresh ideas and inspiration and just like changing routines, it’s like a fresh slate. So excited to move on a bit more.

Andrew Morgans 50:11
I couldn’t agree more. And there’s something very like, grand, like, just gives you perspective and gives like, you know, to me, it builds up my gratitude whenever I’m with someone like your wife that’s experiencing stuff new that we take for granted, and you get to see them experience it. It’s like, you know, probably like Christmas with having a little kid you know, in the family, and you’re getting to see them see the presence and you’re growing, and you’re like, it’s Christmas, I can buy this myself. But like seeing the joy and excitement of someone experiencing something new is just like, invigorating to me. And I’ve built my life to be able to travel in. That’s really why I get inspiration and my creativity is from traveling and from music. So I wish you the best on those journeys. Portugal, I went to Puerto Rico last June and it was maybe one of the best weekends of my life. I just had an absolute blast time on the beach at a festival there with my best friend taking a little break from work, shutting the computers and just checking out. So good. Good luck with that, as we as we round out to where can people connect with you? Where can people reach you? Where can people find your content? And continue to engage with you?

AJ Cassata 51:17
Yeah, for sure. So the best way to learn from the best way to connect with me or learn from me, and where I teach a lot more of the outbound stuff, is in our Facebook group. We have a Facebook group called B2B Sales and marketing secrets that is totally free and open to the public. And that’s where I post tons and tons of training around the subject of outbound or lead gen or scaling an agency, and also really active there. You can text me anytime, send me messages, or drop me a question. And then also on LinkedIn at AJ cassava, and also on Twitter, and you’ll be one of my first few followers if you follow me there.

Andrew Morgans 51:43
Okay, I think they’re changing the name. I saw something. I saw something today like, Elon Musk was changing the name. I don’t know if that was real or not. Yeah. We’ll see. We’ll see. And I’ll get those links, guys, to our listeners, like get those in the show notes. So if you’re driving or unable to write that down with what AJ said about the Facebook group, we’ll get a link there so that that can be shared with you. AJ, thank you so much for your time and for being on the show today and sharing value with everybody.

AJ Cassata 52:12
And I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Andrew Morgans 52:15
It was a fun chat, of course, and thank you, Hustlers, for tuning in. Thanks to our sponsor, Full Scale. Do you need to hire software engineers, testers, and leaders? Let Full Scale help. They have the people and the platform to help you build and manage a team of experts. When you visit FullScale.io, all you need to do is answer a few questions and let the platform match you up with a fully vetted, highly experienced team of software engineers, testers, and leaders. At Full Scale, they specialize in building long-term teams that work only for you. Learn more when you visit FullScale.io. Thank you, Hustlers. We’ll see you next time. Thank you, AJ. We’ll see you.