Ep. #1033 - Take Care of Your People

00:02.00
Frank Keck
Howdy everybody! Welcome back to another awesome episode of Founder Fridays with Frank where we explore the challenges. That’s a lot of f’s. And we explore the challenges founders face on any given day. Our goal is to give you ideas and to support…

00:19.71
Frank Keck
To help your business grow in a healthy and productive way. I’m your guest host, Frank Keck, we have a guest guest today. My background: I’m the founder and CEO of CoreBuild, where we help build strong leaders and amazing workplace cultures. That being said, I’m an entrepreneur at heart. I have started a few businesses myself and I love working with founders and CEOs and startups. And that’s exactly why I’m so excited to bring you these founder Fridays with Frank Episodes. So you’re in for a real treat as the first 4 guests of this series, you likely know pretty well. They’re the 4 hosts of the Startup Hustle. So you’ve heard last week’s episode with Matt Watson and you’ve probably also heard the episode with Andrew Morgans. And so today, we’ve got founder number 3. But before I tell you who that is and I tell you I love putting these founders in the hot seat so you can learn more about them. They do not know the questions that I’m going to ask which has led to some interesting answers.

01:27.10
Frank Keck
Before I share details of our next guest I want to take a quick moment to thank Full Scale for sponsoring today’s podcast episode. Go learn how Full Scale helps you build a winning software team quickly and affordably by visiting fullscale.io.

And now without any further ado or nonsense, let’s welcome our third guest in this four part founders founder Fridays with Frank series. None other than…drum roll…Matt DeCoursey. Matt is the founder and Ceo of full scale fullscale io he is also a published author and an authority on fashion and. So Matt, before we have you say hello, I was told Matt Watson is known as the best looking of the 4 hosts. Andrew Morgan is the coolest. You, I understand, have the best fashion sense. So, welcome to the program.

02:27.55
Matt DeCoursey
Thanks for having me. I’ve always wanted to be a guest on this show.

02:34.43
Frank Keck
You’re living the dream. We’re fulfilling that dream for you.

02:38.29
Matt DeCoursey
It’s true. Yeah. I don’t think I’ve been a guest on this show before, not in this context. So thanks for having me and by the way, I’m founder number one. I’ll be in the third episode but I demand being founder number 1.

02:40.30
Frank Keck
Very very cool my pleasure tell us a little okay, okay, if okay, you me to redo that welcome founder number 1, Matt DeCoursey.

02:55.38
Matt DeCoursey
Well hold it. Thank you. Full Scale, the tech services company, that you know, we help our clients build software teams quickly and affordably and why? Well.

02:58.65
Frank Keck
Tell us a little bit about Full Scale Matt.

03:09.60
Frank Keck
The name.

03:12.90
Matt DeCoursey
Our clients are usually north american software and technology companies and there’s like 300000 open it jobs in the us. It is very difficult to build and scale a team. It’s a problem that so you mentioned the other Matt the bet I guess apparently the best looking mat of the hosts on the podcast according to him.

03:19.70
Frank Keck
Wow.

03:32.12
Matt DeCoursey
Um, is also my investor and partner at full scale and you know when we started the business. We did it because we were realizing as software and technology founders. How difficult it was to find people. Ah you know we’re in Kansas City much like startup hustle and that made it even harder. Ah, because a lot of people in markets like this were at the time moving to Silicon Valley New York other places that seemed like they had a little more glitz and glamour and really in the end we knew that that everyone wants to build offshore development teams. But no one really knew how so we created a founder friendly.

03:54.39
Frank Keck
Right.

04:08.93
Matt DeCoursey
To do that which has evolved rapidly at the time you know we we got about have about 300 employees now and we’ve also built a pretty sophisticated management platform that helps us manage our employees helps our clients manage their teams and then the. Overwhelming task that it takes on is the massive number of applicants that we now get so yeah, just a lot of automation and and stuff like that. But really in the end just trying to provide quality development teams that that last not short term stuff.

04:28.14
Frank Keck
Right.

04:44.31
Frank Keck
Cool now you and I have talked about culture a couple times and so we’re going to talk about that more today culture and leadership and um, you know since you and I spoke on the last episode that you and I did a couple years ago. The world’s changed fairly dramatically so it’s even harder now to find.

04:55.80
Matt DeCoursey
Yes.

05:01.50
Frank Keck
Yeah, it used to be hard to find good help and now it’s just hard to find help period yet alone good help. So we’re going to dig in more about how full scale does that and then and then how they build their culture so they can keep those folks so question number 1 I think the world wants to know what color shoes are you wearing today.

05:22.11
Matt DeCoursey
They are not gold I think that for and for those of you listening because you never see my shoes when I’m the host but I do own ah roughly 50 pairs of gold shoes mainly sneakers. Um. And I’m actually wearing black shoes today because contrary to popular belief I don’t wear gold shoes all the time. Um, they’re really heavy and and hard to keep shiny. No, they’re not real gold so they’re actually not heavy, but.

05:38.20
Frank Keck
Okay. Okay, and.

05:53.65
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, black black shoes. So oh no, they come in gold the when it comes to gold shoes. The the hardest part is most gold shoes that if you’re if you’re shopping for women’s shoes which I’m not.

05:56.00
Frank Keck
Can you buy? Ah do you buy them already gold or do you have to paint them.

06:09.00
Frank Keck
Right.

06:09.21
Matt DeCoursey
It’s easy to find gold shoes. But when we say gold we mean like striking gold and and we could do a whole another episode about that. But ah, some of my friends and peers that are also sneaker heads have decided that I am 1 of the foremost collectors of gold footwear at least in America we’re not sure though.

06:25.12
Frank Keck
My third my 13 year old son Leo is a shoe head and I I told him we were doing this program today and he said so Matt is a shoe head and he’s like oh yeah, and well I called it.

06:28.30
Matt DeCoursey
There’s no, there’s no, there’s no charter less for that.

06:36.90
Matt DeCoursey
So Sneaker head Sneaker head you call Sneaker head not shoot and they they’ll get mad at you enough really does.

06:42.93
Frank Keck
I Called you a shoe head. So so maybe maybe he did say Sneaker head anyway shows you? what I know right? but I showed him somewhere I found a picture of gold you and gold shoes and I I said look he’s this guy wears a lot of gold shoes. He’s like tad. That’s how.

06:54.34
Matt DeCoursey
I Got a shoot problem man. The real truth is is if we’re getting there I have way way way more shoes that aren’t gold. Oh me all day like my wife tells me to get rid of she is I have a second closet.

07:01.53
Frank Keck
Who has more shoes you are your wife. Okay, Beautiful. Back.

07:10.99
Matt DeCoursey
Shoes and that’s after I gave a whole bunch of them to a local charity that has a shoe store where they teach young young men and women how to operate a business. Yeah yeah.

07:19.93
Frank Keck
Okay, before we dig into the culture discussion and stuff since the tables are turned on you a little bit today tell our audience 1 thing about yourself that our listeners probably don’t know about you.

07:38.50
Matt DeCoursey
And that’s a considering how many episodes of this show that I’ve hosted that could that could be tough but I’m not going to go with the assumption that everybody knows that um you know I’ve talked about this a lot. It’s not really a secret but I’ve dropped out of 5 colleges and.

07:44.14
Frank Keck
Ah.

07:48.56
Frank Keck
The.

07:56.46
Matt DeCoursey
I’m proud of that. Um, at one point I tried to hide that fact because it didn’t feel like a selling point now I I get a lot of people that draw inspiration from that. Um, because you know I really do and and the weird part that comes without is I’m often tagged in other people’s social posts. Thanking me for giving them the courage to drop out of school and I’m like I don’t know if I need that for everyone. But yeah, yeah, so that’s it. That’s a fun fact about me I Guess I think.

08:25.77
Frank Keck
I Love that but you know that does say you know I think sometimes we stay in things longer and it’s no longer serving us right? and so you have to know? ah.

08:33.47
Matt DeCoursey
Well, that’s what happened on the last one the last one I dropped out of it was like a top 10 top 20 kind of business school. But um I started the business that I wrote about in my book million dollar bedroom and I and I even addressed that in the book I had a very tough decision at one point. And you know good business opportunities and things that gain traction quickly I didn’t realize at the time are really I kind of did. But I mean they’re hard to find I could have always gone back to school. Um.

08:59.98
Frank Keck
Right.

09:02.85
Matt DeCoursey
But I had to make a decision at one point because I am a firm believer. There’s only so many things you’re going to do on an elite level. So if you yeah, you only have so much bandwidth.

09:12.56
Frank Keck
That’s true. That’s true. So full scale has been around 4 years is that right? 5 years and you guys have had tremendous growth I think you’re ah inc 500 now right? 5000

09:18.57
Matt DeCoursey
Roughly? yeah in that ballpark. Yeah, true and yeah in 5000 we were. There was our first year eligible so for those of you that aren’t aware Inc 5000 is ah, compares the 3 trailing years of revenue and measures its growth over that period so we were over 700% in growth in that 3 year period which is also our first three years of business.

09:33.59
Frank Keck
Approach this orange.

09:46.51
Matt DeCoursey
Um, it was our first year eligible to even be on the list and we were number Eight seventy eight in the country number 6 in the state of Kansas and that was a lot of validation for a lot of people that did more work to get there than I did.

09:59.18
Frank Keck
But I think that says a lot for you. All as an organization on a couple of things number one that you can and not a lot of companies can build that fast and that solid and keep it but also that you’re in an industry where there’s probably a lot more room for growth.

10:13.94
Matt DeCoursey
Oh yeah, yeah, we’ve sque’ve barely scratched the surface in that regard. Yeah.

10:16.17
Frank Keck
That than even that very cool. So so you’re a successful entrepreneur. successful author ah successful sneaker head successful fashionista. Um. What’s the biggest challenge that you have right now Matt when it comes to um people when it comes to like building your team employees. What’s the biggest challenge that you have right now.

10:41.87
Matt DeCoursey
So when you look at a company like full scale and we’re coming up on our three hundredth employee and we go back in the Timeline. So we yeah for a year we had roughly a hundred people that kind of growth leaves a. It leaves a little. It has a little bit of stink with it sometimes because you’re that early stage and I you’re a culture expert. We’ve talked about this, you don’t really have company culture in that early of a stage and but I realize the importance of that so I’ve been I mean.

11:07.64
Frank Keck
Right.

11:16.73
Matt DeCoursey
Flexible but yet militant in certain ways when it came to protecting it. Um, you know all these years later now. The business is moving so quickly. The biggest problem that I have quite honestly is not. What we do in the Philippines because we are experts at finding developers testers. We use the acronym rare. We say we specialize in recruiting assessing retaining and employing where aces at all that stuff. But really, the hardest thing I have on many levels is related to sales and business development. Because the level of expertise that it takes to understand what a technology company needs or wants or to communicate with tech founders or chief technology officers.

11:57.27
Frank Keck
Right.

12:03.80
Matt DeCoursey
Um, aren’t usually skills and conversations that come from people that have an experience have experience with sales Why because those are usually people that have been more on the technical side and there’s ah ah often a pretty big difference in personality type in the in the.

12:08.90
Frank Keck
Right.

12:21.52
Matt DeCoursey
And the people that choose either of those paths so I’ve taken that role primarily and we’ve got a new sales director at full scale that’s doing well. But it’s hard to kind of bring people on because with with that locally. There’s a lot of Well if you can sell software and technology then you’ve got ah ah, there’s a high price tag that comes with you and unfortunately it takes us several months to really understand if so if someone’s going to end up being good at it or not so. Yeah, it’s been a little bit of a challenge and yeah, that’s probably the bigger one and then I think that kind of you go with that is I don’t want to say it’s a problem. But yeah as you mentioned at the beginning of the show. The world changed. So the first half of our timeline where a company had everybody that went to work at an office every day and then the second so we had to work really hard to learn how to get good at that and then almost like in the blink of an eye. It was gone and then we had to learn how to be remote. We built a platform to help manage that the the.

13:13.26
Frank Keck
Right.

13:24.40
Matt DeCoursey
1 of the harder things with leadership and culture has been related to now doing that it’s it’s it’s a different vibe feeling and set of needs when everyone’s in the same place every day and now we have employees all over the Philippines.

13:28.80
Frank Keck
I.

13:38.60
Matt DeCoursey
And just a small number in Kansas City but the Philippines is 7700 different islands like these people aren’t always close to each other so we’ve had to do stuff to keep them engaged and make sure people are doing okay because quite honestly being ah ah a developer and working at home can be lonely.

13:42.23
Frank Keck
Wow.

13:56.14
Frank Keck
Sure.

13:57.26
Matt DeCoursey
A little bit and you know so find trying to do things that. Um yeah, our company’s biggest assets are our people so just trying to figure out how to continue to improve that and we just do that through listening I just ask you know like I just sent it out yesterday i. Once a quarter I sent out just ah, a basic form and ask me your questions and I answer those questions and in ah and a video that I’ll send out so I’ll just sit sit in front of a mic similar to what we’re doing right now and.

14:24.20
Frank Keck
Okay.

14:29.73
Matt DeCoursey
Record a video and I answer the questions that the people that the people at work at the company have and it’s pretty easy to understand what’s on their minds because you can hear the echo and some of the questions that you know like during the pandemic it was there A lot of people are just insecure about you know like is the company doing okay and and so so.

14:45.89
Frank Keck
Right.

14:49.39
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, a little a slightly different set of challenges but we’ve been able to Rise Rise up and and just you know and then also understanding that we can always get better at that for.

14:55.89
Frank Keck
So what are some of the questions that are some of the things that your people are asking you that you’re answering I love that I love that technique I think that’s really cool because you’ve got 300 people you’ve got to reach out to that’s a lot of 1 on 1 Zoom calls.

15:02.23
Matt DeCoursey
Of like yeah like well I don’t do that and that that would that would so you by the way that’s one That’s one of those interesting things you talk about but like at scale. So.

15:14.77
Frank Keck
That were big.

15:21.95
Matt DeCoursey
I’ve always taken a lot of pride and having kind of an open door where people could reach out to me and they do sometimes it’s definitely made it a lot harder for me to get to know the people that work at the company when they’re not there because I’ve been to the Philippines twice this year but we only have like 10 people that go to our office.

15:31.55
Frank Keck
A.

15:37.46
Frank Keck
Right? right.

15:39.58
Matt DeCoursey
Which feels weird because it’s ah each we have 2 floors each of which is ten Thousand Square feet so you’re like you know, pretty much. Yeah, yeah, so it just looks like I was there last time and it was easter sunday and I felt like it was like that movie I am legend you know we’re well Smith’s last

15:43.52
Frank Keck
So everybody gets a Thousand Square feet apiece

15:57.73
Frank Keck
But.

15:58.95
Matt DeCoursey
Mama. There’s like nobody there in the I t bar but that was like weird this is weird. The questions are are are you know are over I mean the recurring ones are always related to um you know. Our future plans for career growth training. Um compensation. We get a lot of you know, a lot of them are are kind of funny because I think they’ve learned that I’ll answer ah a lot of them even if they’re weird. So I’ve even had questions like hey Matt do you drink want to get wasted. Um i.

16:32.16
Frank Keck
I Did How did you answer that.

16:34.99
Matt DeCoursey
I answered that I get Well I said I said I don’t really drink that much. But I now this is coming from an anonymous person I’m like but if you come find me because I like the question we can talk about it but that person never never identified themselves. Ah which was disappointing for me quite honestly. Um.

16:47.18
Frank Keck
Um, right.

16:53.50
Matt DeCoursey
so yeah so I mean the right now one is so the the inflation is a hot topic and the cost of living has gone up so I got the ones that have been coming in have been related to that. Ah, in the past answering questions in this format has helped us actually create so we have a really really really small churn rate for our employees which in the world right now is is rare like it’s so like out of 300 people I’ll get maybe 1 or 2 that leave in a month which is.

17:25.21
Frank Keck
Wow! yeah.

17:27.96
Matt DeCoursey
Tiny That’s tiny and a lot of that isn’t because they’re not happy with the company. It’s because they have an opportunity to move to another country so over the pandemic. We had almost no churn and then you could tell a lot of companies kind of like our countries left.

17:34.98
Frank Keck
Right.

17:44.18
Matt DeCoursey
Lifted their visa requirements or something so we had a little flirt near that this year that kind of drove that number up. But with that we’ve been able to reshape our our plans to give people.

17:44.48
Frank Keck
Right.

17:55.65
Matt DeCoursey
You know, a lot of companies kind of give you a cost of living increase that comes once an era and said we do that twice a year. We do it every July first and January first give everyone a raise. Um, we’ve also used it to incorporate like when hey when your people are asking. You could hear the echo like you get that same question 25 times

17:56.93
Frank Keck
Right? she.

18:14.35
Matt DeCoursey
It needs to be addressed. Um, and then for us.

18:15.00
Frank Keck
So you listen to the questions but you also are watching okay where what are the patterns. What are we getting a lot of yeah.

18:22.73
Matt DeCoursey
That’s the main thing I’m looking at and then and then some of them are interesting oneoff questions and then you know some of them are honestly just like hey Matt how are you doing like not how’s the like how are you doing and and you know I’ll answer that. Yeah like ah, there’s ah usually ah.

18:33.11
Frank Keck
Right.

18:40.58
Matt DeCoursey
I saw all out of 300 employees I’ll I’ll expect in the week that I’ll leave these questions open before I do the video I’ll I’ll get 75 to 100 responses which is a lot so it makes it easier to it’s a spot doubt.

18:49.97
Frank Keck
Wow.

18:54.51
Matt DeCoursey
And then you know there’s standard stuff people just want to ah you know Matt Watson likes to say your employees just really want to know if we’re winning or losing so a lot of them would be like what are our goals whether projections stuff like that. Um, it’s pretty easy for your employees to.

19:01.00
Frank Keck
Right.

19:11.14
Matt DeCoursey
Understand the company is likely healthy and growing when they consistently consistently see new people being introduced or when new people start we use slack and kind of hey welcome soando. So and when that volume keeps going through. It’s It’s pretty good. So I mean that’s pretty much the standard stuff.

19:17.40
Frank Keck
Right.

19:22.65
Frank Keck
Okay.

19:30.13
Matt DeCoursey
Um, yeah, yeah.

19:32.53
Frank Keck
You know, just ah, a couple of things. Um, so you guys have a low chur rate. But I want people to know you as you’re building a culture. No churn rate is just as bad as a high churn rate. I have ah I have a client right now Matt and they’ve got people who have been there more than 50 years and and and the people still do a good job but it’s like you know the world’s changed in 50 years and we need fresh ideas and and sometimes the sometimes the people that don’t leave are the people that you need to leave so.

19:54.33
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, yeah.

20:03.79
Frank Keck
You Guys don’t be scared of a little bit of Churn as long as it’s the right people so people wanting to go to a different country people stepping up and getting a different job maybe moving up in a different Organization. You guys. That’s that’s all good right? Those things are all Good. So What that tells me mad is we’re we’re developing people. And and that’s a positive thing. The other thing that yeah.

20:23.10
Matt DeCoursey
So I have a comment with that. So one of the challenges we have is so we work with about 50 different tech companies. But our model means our people become your team members at your company. So I have to straddle this line because look they they want.

20:31.40
Frank Keck
And right.

20:40.40
Matt DeCoursey
People to be in a seat for 10 years so some of the things that we have to do in the background is sometimes provide a little bit more of the training the culture side of things and other stuff. So it’s yeah and you know trying to keep people not feeling staged like like there’s.

20:55.66
Frank Keck
Right.

20:58.75
Matt DeCoursey
Stagnating in their career. They’re stalled out or keep them interested or engaged the thing we found that that we’re really insistent about and I think what has a lot to do with our growth because we don’t have really any client Churn either which is but that comes from. Being so we’re really picky about who we hire Well about 1 in 30 applicants is considered for a job offer. Oh That’s pretty picky but that’s all we’re also like a premium service provider but the key ingredient is finding ah a client that has the need and then finding a service.

21:19.97
Frank Keck
E.

21:33.20
Matt DeCoursey
Provider or someone us that’s passionate about solving that need by the way I don’t want to get you in trouble. You’re supposed to do your other at your second ad read right now you want me to do it. You do it in a sleep.

21:36.40
Frank Keck
So you said you’re thank you very I know I don’t want you to do it I want to do it. Yeah finding expert software developers like Matt doesn’t have to be difficult, especially when you visit fullscale io where you can build a software team quickly and affordably.

21:51.79
Matt DeCoursey
And so.

22:00.89
Frank Keck
Use the full scale platform to define your technical needs and then see what available developers tuster and leaders are ready to join your team and you’re kind of getting some behind the scenes here today visit fullscale io to learn more or just listen continue to listen because we’re going to talk more about.

22:17.56
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, so to.

22:19.83
Frank Keck
Ah, some more about full scale. So I have two 2 things that you mentioned that I’d like you to expand on a little bit number 1 um I wrote the word picky but I think the word you used was selective right? So you talked about being very selective with the people you bring on the team. But I think also you’re without having client churn you’ve got to be selective about. Who do you all bring on as clients. Can you talk to us about that piece a little bit.

22:40.19
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, that’s as important if not more important than the than the employee selection I mentioned earlier that our as our biggest asset at the company is our people.

22:54.10
Frank Keck
E.

22:56.17
Matt DeCoursey
And knowing that it takes 30 applicants to find 1 person that we’re going to consider that doesn’t even mean we hire that means 1 person that we hey this person could get a job offer if that comes up they have about a 2 2 out of 3 chance of getting 1 some people don’t but. The thing is is if we have the wrong clients. So software developers are as concerned if not more concerned about what they’re doing and and what they’re participating in the technology they’re using and that they’re not bored shitless to be honest, there’s there was my swear Frank told me I had to swear at least one time I was like.

23:20.22
Frank Keck
Right.

23:26.23
Frank Keck
Um, right.

23:30.79
Matt DeCoursey
I listeners are gonna be upset if I if I only keep it at 1 but but I I’ve gotten a little more mature with age and I just really haven’t had anything that’s made me want to swear yet. Um.

23:32.85
Frank Keck
I can’t believe it took you 23 minutes to get there but okay.

23:47.76
Matt DeCoursey
It doesn’t take too long. But yeah, you know with with the selection of clients. Um, so the thing is is out of that one out of 30 people. These are people that show um a level of excellence when it comes to experience skill communication things like that and. People that are in that industry vertical. So our our average developer so primarily our staff is primarily software developers and engineers ah the next more most popular thing is is a tester and that’s 90% of our revenue generating employees right? there the other 10% are a mix of.

24:13.50
Frank Keck
Right.

24:26.30
Matt DeCoursey
Of like leaders product owners development managers stuff like that. Um, ah, but but people that have high levels of Expertise part of how we attract them to come work at full scale is the promise of interesting and challenging projects and clients. So. You know? So I’ll talk to people that don’t really understand what they do? Oh you build websites Now. We don’t build websites. We build software platforms that usually do really complex stuff and can only be touched monitored built and grown by people that are really good at what they do Now that being said. Those those kind of jobs are kind of hard to find you know like you know and software developers are clearly on demand but doing something that you’re passionate about that. You’re interested in and all of it makes it way more interesting and exciting to get up and do you don’t get bored with it. So that’s.

25:05.62
Frank Keck
Right.

25:21.65
Matt DeCoursey
That has a lot to do with the the the reduction of Churn and then really what we’ve noticed is that passion for solving the problem. Ah and and working with good people because do no one wants to go work at a place that sucks so we have actually fired clients like and and aren’t afraid to do that.

25:36.90
Frank Keck
That’s true.

25:41.40
Matt DeCoursey
At all like what will get you fired as a client is treating our people like shit you know and and that’s not acceptable for us like there’s and if that occurs like we will go try to address it but we have a real short leash with that real short leash.

25:44.54
Frank Keck
So it sounds a little bit.

25:55.28
Frank Keck
So so you guys take care of your people which is.

26:00.30
Matt DeCoursey
It’s number it’s the number 1 thing it’s the number 1 thing that is in my thought process when it comes to the people that work at full scale I work for them I work for them in that regard and if I let them down in this in this case.

26:05.78
Frank Keck
Okay, so there’s another tip work work work. Yeah.

26:14.50
Matt DeCoursey
I mean I’m dropping you in a miserable situation and that’s just not cool. Man is not the way to do it. So.

26:17.30
Frank Keck
So we’re we’re gathering tips to to today too. Matt and so one of the tips for our listeners I want to make sure and point this out is take care of your people right? as hard as it is to find people.

26:27.72
Matt DeCoursey
Ah, hire percent. Yeah yeah.

26:30.30
Frank Keck
You got to keep them and the reason people leave they leave their bosses. They don’t leave the company they lead the boss because the boss typically doesn’t take care of them one. Yeah yeah, yeah.

26:34.70
Matt DeCoursey
Well, every company says they take care of their people and they’re people first and blah blah blah. But do you really do it I mean and that’s the key and if as and if you’re in the leadership seat look you have if you can’t get buy in on that. Then it’s just words you know like so you have to back it up and you have to be you know I’ll give you an example that one that that is I still get feedback about so I was in Sabu City where our main office is and and March of 2020 when covid really broke out. I was supposed to leave the Philippines on on March thirteen now in the timeline. That’s ah, right around the same time the and nba the ncla had just canceled the tourna at the night before and everyone’s freaked out and I woke up and I was supposed to address the company that day. And ah and I woke up that morning and I was walking over the office and I just felt sick to my stomach and I so and I I stopped halfway there and I called my wife and I said Jill I can’t come home tomorrow. And she said like I even I’m even feeling emotional talking about this and she she said why and I said I can’t stand in front I can’t I was supposed to talk to the whole company at that point we had 180 people. We had 2 groups in 90.

27:51.98
Frank Keck
Right.

27:54.16
Matt DeCoursey
You know, but and this was the big thing like I answer all the questions like I mentioned I used to do that in person in front of these groups and we didn’t want that many people in a room anyway. So you know so we had two groups I said I can’t stand in front of all these people who have given me their heart and their soul and and building this company with and for us and our clients and I can’t. Say hey we got to stay the course we’re going to figure this out and then get on my jet plane and go back to America tomorrow I said this is not the time for me to walk away from this and you know my wife um you know I’m choked up talking about this and she’s like I get it. She goes I’ll see you when you get back.

28:18.20
Frank Keck
Right.

28:31.85
Frank Keck
And you are gone for like a whole nother week or something right.

28:33.80
Matt DeCoursey
And I was I was I actually ended up leaving on the twentieth and I recorded an interesting series of podcasts that I just found the notes for I I So I wasn’t planning on being that. Gone that long and we weren’t as good at planning a head on the podcast so we were about to run out of episodes I was like you know I’m going to record the Corona diaries and I found the notes for that the other day when I when I was I’ve been moving my office slowly very slowly which is a different subject I need to address in life. But.

28:53.72
Frank Keck
Ah, right.

29:06.47
Matt DeCoursey
I Found the notes I wanted I was gonna I might record an episode and go back and review some of that and see what I was right about what it was right? and what wasn’t yeah I think I think it would be but yeah, so anyway I ended up I ended up going to this meeting and I told both groups I said I’m here with you and I’m gonna stay here and get this figured out.

29:11.47
Frank Keck
That would be kind of cool. Yeah.

29:26.40
Matt DeCoursey
And I have to say I said hey look I don’t have the answers right now. None of us have any expertise on global pandemics at this point now that now look over in in the asian side of the world like you know China.

29:34.38
Frank Keck
Um, right.

29:42.86
Matt DeCoursey
Philippines all these things they had. They had much more expertise than us they had gone through bird flu and like a bunch of other things there and they were a lot more equipped for it meaning like people were one of the things I noticed when I first started traveling the philippines years ago is a lot of people were just wearing masks in general. Yeah, and that’s some of that’s.

29:55.76
Frank Keck
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:59.94
Matt DeCoursey
Air pollution and some of its a lot of other things but they were a lot more equipped for it and they were a lot more cooperative about it. You know here yet it was a dog fight to get someone to wear a mask they everyone like instantly adopted but but still to this day. The feedback that I’ve gotten for management is that was a game changer. For a lot of our employees now with that immediately occurred we lost 35 % of our revenue over the next sixty days and that was our clients kind of freaking out and dropping things now in congress with that other local employers around suboo and I won’t name who they are but companies you.

30:26.34
Frank Keck
Wow.

30:38.68
Matt DeCoursey
Would probably recognize cut. Everyone’s salary force them to use pto days. We did none of that we did none of that none none of it and I Matt Watson and I and our wallets ate that money and we were okay with that still to this day was a good decision. But.

30:42.32
Frank Keck
Right.

30:58.27
Matt DeCoursey
I didn’t want that to be I was happy to do that. But so that but that but nothing up like that and then also like but that’s that selfest approach like you’re way like like without all those people Frank I’m just a guy looking for something to do.

31:02.13
Frank Keck
I think that that talks to the value Matt.

31:12.45
Frank Keck
But that talks that talks to the value of loyalty right.

31:18.68
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, we got a lot of it. That’s I mean and see those same people are still around and it still comes up so you talk about the comments that come in sometimes they’re not even questions Sometimes they’re just statements So like I know I’m supposed to put a question in here I Just want to thank you for like caring about the company. Um.

31:27.11
Frank Keck
Right.

31:33.93
Frank Keck
Ah, f.

31:34.47
Matt DeCoursey
Which by the way is tough like I don’t want to say Karen’s tough to do but um, you know 1 thing about employees is they always ask for ah a lot if you when you put these things out and that’s the hard part is you do have to manage that you have to manage it with a budget and within reality and not just with your heart.

31:52.52
Frank Keck
Well and you have to tell people here’s what we can do and here’s what we can’t and here’s why right.

31:54.19
Matt DeCoursey
Because. And I do and I do we’ve been very transparent about that. So some of those questions too people ask us straight out like is why does the company profitable and you know at that point we’re like no, but but you don’t need. That’s not your problem. That’s mine. Let me worry about that. You show up and do work.

32:10.74
Frank Keck
Right.

32:16.34
Matt DeCoursey
And and and we’re going to keep this going you know because what’s going to make sure it doesn’t keep going is if we stop working right.

32:23.48
Frank Keck
Um, so you know a couple of points here Matt that I think we can learn from a couple more tips like so so tip number 1 is whatever behavior you put out there. Whatever value you put out there. That’s what’s going to come back. So you’re loyal to them first you’re now finding that coming back that loyalty coming back. 1 of my questions I was going to ask but you just answered it was about transparency. The more you’re transparent with your people and you let them know hey here’s the state of the company here’s our expectations of you right? The more that you put that out there the more they’re going to be transparent with you I was dealing with a client the other day they’re like no, we don’t want our we don’t want anybody in the company to know how much money we make like why not? Well, we don’t trust them.

32:55.11
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah I agree.

33:05.75
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, if you don’t trust them. They’re not going to trust you in that regard and but there is I do have a limit to some of the transparency like I might not share like a bottom line number.

33:06.21
Frank Keck
Then why did you hire him right? So it’s just the different philosophy. But I think that transparency is important. No exactly and that’s why they have a culture problem.

33:19.44
Frank Keck
Right.

33:21.56
Matt DeCoursey
Um, and that regard because there can also be some misinterpretation to that because like we are a profitable company now. But that’s still overriding 3 years of not you know so but but that might be something that I share now. Um, yeah, but I mean really, that key is is is keeping that. I Don’t know why not share it with people.

33:45.90
Frank Keck
It’s fear right? like cultures driven by one it.

33:45.48
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, what? well people that won’t share. They don’t don’t they don’t want to tell people that they’re profitable because then they’re they’re worried that that’s gonna mean everyone’s going to come with their handout now look they might you can say no.

33:54.89
Frank Keck
Yeah, yeah, but I think company cultures driven companies are driven by their you’re either driven by love and you’re moving towards stuff and you’re doing things for your people or you’re driven by fear like everything is going to be taken away at any moment but but you had another thing that you mentioned and and I.

34:02.87
Matt DeCoursey
That was fun.

34:13.47
Frank Keck
I’m gonna ask you to talk about it a little bit and I wrote down match. You’re kind of like techmatch.com right so match dot com is this website where you can go and you know if you if you want to find somebody that you can be aligned with I think it’s primarily for dating. So.

34:28.25
Matt DeCoursey
We’re showing our age by using that because I think all the kids use tender now like I wouldn’t know I wouldn’t know dude I’m married that man I’m like yeah.

34:33.28
Frank Keck
I thought tinder was just like a quick thing but I’ve been married 15 years. So I am not up on that. But the reason I bring that up mad is because I know that like for Matt and for match and some of those it’s it’s like okay we’re going to help you meet somebody who there’s a match right? who you’re aligned with. And and and so you’re more likely to have a positive relationship. But as you talked about not having a lot of churn in your employees but also in clients. Ah 1 of the things that you alluded to was we want to give our people interesting work. So like how do if if I work for you. How do you match me up with the right.

35:06.31
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, yeah.

35:13.13
Frank Keck
Company to go do my work with how do you create that match.

35:17.26
Matt DeCoursey
Um, carefully on some days now. That’s what our platform does. So if you look at like Okay, so what’s tricky about what we do is first off we have to have someone that that has the technical acumen and experience to survive. In a rapidly moving way and you can depreciate that trust in and a team whether they’re a contractor or a full-time employee by making everyone else’s life difficult So That’s the main thing we’re vetting for in the beginning but there is there is There’s a whole nother level. So A lot of people will say Oh So yeah, you just want people that can write code or or do this or do that. But that’s only part of it so in order to have to have a productive communications. Really the big key so we look at we look at more than just someone’s. Technical aptitude. In our case, we need him to speak English too like that big thing so you could be the best coder in the world. But if you don’t speak English We. We aren’t the right spot for you in that regard. But we also like I’m looking at at an actual assessment form inside our system and and you know that we rate we we.

36:12.30
Frank Keck
Right.

36:18.72
Frank Keck
Right.

36:29.39
Matt DeCoursey
Take it take a guess but because it is a guess you don’t ever know if anybody’s good at anything or if you’re right about your opinion of that until they show up and do the job by the way that’s that’s the thing I It’s real. But.

36:36.94
Frank Keck
Right.

36:40.60
Matt DeCoursey
So we’re looking for relevant experience experience in the software development industry communication um attitude and likeability is a really big thing. Probably the biggest things are critical thinking and critical thinking means I could say hey Frank um I don’t think this idea is going to work. And this is why and we might want to consider a different approach or at least know and understand that if we do go this direction or take this approach. We may have some stuff to clean up fix or change or adjust later which. And the world of software is referred to technical debt. It’s very difficult to avoid but a lot of people end up with this is this equivalent of you. Don’t want. Yes, yes, people that people are yes, yes, yes, all the time but then with that there’s ah we also look for problem solving because really.

37:14.87
Frank Keck
Right.

37:29.71
Frank Keck
Media.

37:32.65
Matt DeCoursey
That’s what a software engineer or a tester does is. It’s a very scientific kind of thing you need to be able to solve a problem now look if you can solve other help other people solve their problems. You’re you’re now a peace of mind vendor.

37:46.25
Frank Keck
Mine vendor.

37:46.94
Matt DeCoursey
And some regards and and providing that kind of stuff that that kind of output is remarkably valuable. We also look at leadership because 1 of the things that that software and technology companies get wrong. All the time is they’ve got someone. That’s great at writing code like that’s our team lead. Is it so we ask him. We just ask him. We’re like would you rather be a member of a team or a leader of a team and they will say one of those 2 arts often I’m okay with both so the the thing is though is putting someone in a leadership position that doesn’t want to be in a leadership position.

38:07.46
Frank Keck
Um, yeah.

38:23.96
Matt DeCoursey
Isn’t going to probably end up that well um, we also put a very high value on versatility. Ah, many of our clients are earlier in their stage of business and don’t have massive resource sets. So someone.

38:34.32
Frank Keck
Right.

38:41.43
Matt DeCoursey
And by the way there’s a difference between someone who is versatile and someone who’s versatile and wants to be versatile. A lot of people do things but they don’t like doing them so we also are checking for that. Um, and then passion passion like I Just we’ve learned this through this podcast.

38:46.83
Frank Keck
Right? right.

39:01.60
Matt DeCoursey
And just experience that people that are passionate about what they’re doing are getting an opportunity to do what they’re passionate about deliver results stick around and are generally happier. Overall anything else and with that.

39:12.17
Frank Keck
Absolutely Well, they’re doing what they love and they do it better? yeah.

39:17.23
Matt DeCoursey
The app. It’s a passion and you know and I don’t know if you know this but you know Matt Watson and I have made a couple million dollars worth of investments in startups over the last few years and the 1 thing that will end our conversation with anyone that we’re talking to about that is the obvious lack of passion. When you’re passionate about anything. It’s not a job man. You’re excited to get up and do it and the key thing so you talk about self-discipline that for me that’s defined as doing the things you need to do the most at the times you want to do them the least and.

39:49.79
Frank Keck
Intent.

39:52.53
Matt DeCoursey
And so if you’re passionate about it man. It’s not really a job. You know it’s like it’s fun. So when we we know sometimes we get that match so right that we actually have to go in and intervene and we’re like hey I really because we do a set monthly price for our clients about a hundred hundred and so.

40:07.26
Frank Keck
Right.

40:11.26
Matt DeCoursey
Hours of of participation average in a quarter per month and a quarter so four hundred and eighty hours but we get we have to build in our own system some tracking and notification tools and we’ve had to go tell a bunch of people are like you cannot work 300 hours a month. No, but I really love what I’m doing like yeah but you’re going to like.

40:30.99
Frank Keck
Who yeah.

40:31.40
Matt DeCoursey
Everything else is going to crumble and now also you know a lot of so here’s a all right? you wanted a fun fact I have 300 employees I’m 47 years old I only have one employee that’s older than me welcome to tech welcome to tech right? No, he knows.

40:42.10
Frank Keck
Nice and we won’t We won’t We won’t ask you who that is but that but that’s it. But that is that that is our world that we’re in.

40:49.87
Matt DeCoursey
But but but with that a lot of our employees are are younger and single they don’t have families. They don’t have kids sometimes yeah but if we if you have a wife kids all that we definitely want to? yeah.

40:57.30
Frank Keck
Right.

41:05.21
Matt DeCoursey
Like it’s just people that are passionate and they want to do well and they’re service orientented and you know like and in some cases during the pandemic. They just couldn’t leave their house. So So some of that like there’s some limitations to it that come in and you know, but that’s part of that. Management and taking care of people. Yeah, another thing too that you talk about culture and keeping people Around. We didn’t have this before but we we brought we hired and trained and created an employee and employee engagement manager like someone that is specifically tasked with creating.

41:34.67
Frank Keck
Wow! Very cool.

41:40.31
Matt DeCoursey
Ah, so part of what you as ah if you have a team at full scale. We make sure that they have a quarterly thing they can do together that could be karaoke or hiking or you know or boating and just beautiful there so they might go island hopping you know and just do something. As a team together and we pay for that. We also do another thing that I’m really proud of and I want wanted to make sure we share we have ah it’s a company holiday. We call it outreach day you may have seen me post about some of this a few months ago so we give everybody a paid day off. Um I i. Personally and the business fund a ah pretty robust amount and then employee engagement our employee engagement people and our office staff come up with 10 to 15 worthwhile things. We can do we let our employees pick what they want to do where they want to do it and all that so this year we planted 5000 trees. We cleaned up like a half mile of Ocean um we we purchased and then installed solar panels at elementary schools that were off the grid.

42:32.82
Frank Keck
Wow.

42:46.79
Matt DeCoursey
Um, and so it all worked at an old folks. Dude we adopted an eagle I didn’t even know we did that until I woke up one day and they were like what we get to name the eagle and I’m like what are you talking about? like oh we adopt the eagle and now we get to name it. So.

43:01.45
Frank Keck
What’d you name it.

43:04.51
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, we’re having a contest for naming. We’re down to the final 2 on that. Um I want everyone submit it so including my own submission which by the way ended up in the finals and that wasn’t because I decided that so one of them is c sharp.

43:04.54
Frank Keck
Okay, what? what are the 2 final names.

43:16.21
Frank Keck
Was it Matt okay, right.

43:21.53
Matt DeCoursey
So there’s a coding language c and then like hashtag e sharp which was a really clever name for an eagle and then the other one is po guopo which translates to sir handsome um, that was my suggestion so po me and sir and Guoppo which is in spanish is also handsome. But. 1 ne night I was joking around and they were like what would your name be if you were a rapper these are the kind of questions I’ll get sometimes and I was like yeah sir handsome which which I you know I’m not to call myself that but I donated it to the eagle voting was not open for that. But I’m expecting po guo to win and a runaway.

43:48.96
Frank Keck
That that’s gonna be okay.

43:59.70
Frank Keck
I have what I love that I have 1 more question and then we’re going to do our fast 4 fast questions from frank to kind of wrap things up, we’re with Matt Decory today all right

44:01.27
Matt DeCoursey
And that to giggle by the way. It’s good looking bird good looking bird. Yeah.

44:09.21
Matt DeCoursey
Bring it on. Let’s do it.

44:14.57
Frank Keck
Ah, so my question is very specific. Do you know what motivates each of your directors Slash team members. Okay.

44:23.95
Matt DeCoursey
I’d say yeah I mean for and I have a lot of them. Um, but I have a I have a pretty good sense of that and it’s and and that can be a lot different compared to the roles that they play. Yeah.

44:36.89
Frank Keck
Okay, so so ah, someone in particular wanted to know that because she wanted you to know that she wants a new car so I’ll just throw that in there and you can figure out who that is yeah was just I guess it was.

44:44.40
Matt DeCoursey
Um, that was Jessica how am I here.

44:50.31
Frank Keck
But you know I think it’s so important to understand what motivates people and I’m going to send you a workshop a worksheet that we created and I’m going to ask you to test it with your people then we’ll come back and do another episode to follow up episode just to kind of see what people can learn.

45:00.74
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, yeah, I Yeah I love doing stuff like that. Yeah yeah, but.

45:06.82
Frank Keck
So it’s called. It’s called clarify my needs and it’s based on maslow’s hierarchy of needs and so we’re going to ask Matt to give that to 5 of his people and we’ll come back and have that conversation because it is important to understand what drives your people what motivates your people what they need and that’s a lot of what we’ve heard today right.

45:10.60
Matt DeCoursey
So.

45:24.25
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah.

45:26.22
Frank Keck
Passion and if you don’t know what’s important to people. We can kill that passion really fast. All right 4 fast questions go ahead. Okay.

45:30.58
Matt DeCoursey
Frank I think the thing that’s well hang on the thing that’s most important as the leader is if you want to get what you want you have to help everyone else get what they want and do it in a way that is as okay so you talk about giving and I’m not a religious person but there is a buddhist principle that I have.

45:38.62
Frank Keck
Absolutely.

45:50.39
Matt DeCoursey
Really really adopted which is the idea that you should give without expectation of return and I think that the same thing goes for an employee. So if you find out what motivates people and by the way don’t assume just ask them. That’s another thing we ask during our our assessments when we interview people like.

45:54.26
Frank Keck
This is.

46:08.88
Matt DeCoursey
What what motivates you? What are your goals. What do you like doing What do you not like doing and you get an understanding for that as well as a comfort level for what their personality style is.

46:09.53
Frank Keck
Right.

46:19.30
Matt DeCoursey
I mean are the introver or to extrovert it is the basic way to look at that because those people hear the message differently. They want to be heard or understood differently and they will mix with other people differently as well. So there’s some basic things to know and understand there that are important.

46:19.29
Frank Keck
Right.

46:30.31
Frank Keck
Absolutely.

46:36.25
Frank Keck
All right here we go for fast with Frank I don’t want you to pull a muscle all right question number 1 paper plastic question number 2 I think I know the answer but you may you may shock us to relax.

46:37.40
Matt DeCoursey
I’m ready for four I’m ready for four light on me and stretching a little bit hang on. We’ be warm up I Me warm up you say I got to go fast I’m old probably already good paper.

46:56.19
Frank Keck
You need to spend time by yourself or with other people. Okay, that does surprise me question number 3

47:00.54
Matt DeCoursey
I’d say by myself because by the way um people often confuse me for being a true extrovert I am so driven that with that personality trait. We appear outgoing. But.

47:07.49
Frank Keck
Yeah.

47:15.57
Matt DeCoursey
You get obsessive about things and you’d really just kind of like to be left alone to whatever you’re obsessed with so I don’t have a high level of drive or need for the social side of stuff. But that said I can definitely go do it and I’m willing to but it’s not something I seek.

47:29.98
Frank Keck
Matt and I are going to do a future episode. We’re going to talk about recovery and not from drug or alcohol. But what he was just talking about because I’m the same way I’m an introvert and I can have extrovert tendencies I have an extrovert job but you guys everybody has to recover.

47:46.99
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, yeah.

47:49.38
Frank Keck
Extroverts can’t be extroverts forever. So we’re going to talk about Matt talked a little bit about work life balance but we as ah as an society. We don’t really talk about giving our people time to recover so we’ll we’ll we’ll do an episode on that all right 2 more questions favorite cartoon character and why that’s one. Who’s your favorite cartoon character and why are they your favorite.

48:11.95
Matt DeCoursey
That’s a great question and I’m struggling for an answer you know Popeye came into mind because I like the fact that he is kind of down and out and you know.

48:15.33
Frank Keck
Okay.

48:22.57
Matt DeCoursey
He rallies spanish and and gets really strong and and what makes me think of that is funny because you know I openly admit and discuss having add and my ad d meds will often make me Popeye in some regards because I’m kind of slacking and whipping and weak and I’m like my focus is terrible here and I’m like all right? so.

48:41.64
Frank Keck
So I I love that So so the Ps like psychologist.

48:42.44
Matt DeCoursey
Yeah, are very candid and I I am who I am Frank I am who I am but actually you know what? but I’m wrong. It’s still voltron voltron it easily? Ah I I don’t know how that didn’t come up first because people give me voltron stuff because